Written By Brianna Ansaldo
 

Our goal here at The Wholesome Show is to make you feel happy, amused and entertained. But a fair warning that we must sometimes journey through a rather astonishing volume of grotesque and sad death to get you there.

We won’t apologise for it. It is our duty.

In this episode, we travel back to the 18th and 19th centuries - a generally dire time to be alive. Infanticide - the killing of unwanted children - was a horrifyingly common reality.  Luckily at the time, there was a relatively liberal emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Joseph II, that decided to try and do something about this epidemic of child killing. 

First of all, he established foundling homes, where unwanted infants could be dropped off.  There was even a convenient after-hours “chute” for those times you couldn’t possibly get there during business hours to give away your children. Convenience was key, even in those days. Then Joseph II set up maternity hospitals, for mothers to give birth in. Was this a brilliant success? Let’s say a little bit of yes and … quite a lot of no. You see, there was a rumour going around that while these hospitals were free, they were in fact … houses of death. 

How did all this death occur?

Well within 24 - 48 hours after exhausted women in need of a solid nap gave birth, they became incredibly unwell. Relentless fevers, excruciating abdominal pain, headaches…These women would go downhill very quickly. Now, because it was the 18th century they had some wacky ancient treatments. The ever trusty leeches, a bit of bloodletting, lots of mercury, opium (that part sounds pretty good), and of course enemas. Because everyone feels like an enema when they’re knocking on death’s door.

Did these treatments work at least? No. No they didn’t. These hospitals don’t get to be known as “Houses of Death” without quite a lot of death. This is where we come to the hero of our story - Dr Ignaz Semmelweis. 

Upon starting work as an obstetrician at the maternity wing of the Vienna General Hospital, Semmelweis realised pretty quickly that something was wrong. Surely a large part of the puzzle was missing.

Ignaz Semmelweis made a discovery that would go on to save hundreds and thousands of lives, but he, unfortunately, paid the ultimate price. Tune in to the episode to hear why Ignaz Semmelweis is truly a martyr to science.

 
 
 

  • Will 00:00

    Just a quick warning on this one before we start, it's got. And I didn't mean this before I started recording an astonishing amount of sad, grotesque death.

    Rod 00:13

    I'm so happy, so happy.

    Will 00:15

    It's probably a universal fact, of human culture that we respect martyrs. You know, I, I don't want to be one myself. But you got to respect people that die for a cause.

    Rod 00:27

    I don't have to, but I get what you're saying. Yeah, so some people die for causes and I think you fucking idiot.

    Will 00:32

    There are dumb causes. There are good causes. Yeah. People die for either of them. And they're pretty much universal. So So whoever got you know, just just some examples. We've got your religious martyrs, like St. Lawrence, St. Lawrence, who pissed off valerian, Emperor valerian of Rome, but it was something to do with that he wanted the Emperor to give money to the peasants or something like that. The Emperor valerian decided to roast him to death on a grid

    Rod 01:00

    iron, roast or fry. That sounds like he's fine raised.

    Will 01:04

    I think there are other people who have been roasted, but he was he was apparently halfway through he asked his persecutors to turn him over to make sure the other side of his body was cooked. And then at the end, he said, At last, I am finished. You may now take from me and eat. I don't

    Rod 01:19

    think okay, both of those bullshit, but it makes for a great story.

    Will 01:23

    Here's another one. St. Margaret clitheroe Who? Excuse me? Yes. clitheroe

    Rod 01:28

    clitheroe, you've been clit hero.

    Will 01:30

    Got a W on the end clip here. Oh, W. Margaret, St. Margaret. She's a saint. You can't say things like that. I didn't know she was a saint Margaret clitheroe, who was found guilty in sort of a leave Elizabeth in times of hiding Catholic priests in her house. And he doesn't doesn't dozens too many. Oh, another one that was that, you know, you know, when you go to the shops, and there's like a limit on any purchase or something. She had too many Catholic priests. She didn't recant. So they crushed her under a door,

    Rod 02:02

    Ah crushing. I was reading about something on that only this morning. And I thought there are many horrible ways to be killed, but to be slowly crushed to death is unreal.

    Will 02:11

    Probablymost religions have martyrs. But of course, there's political martyrs as well. Like, famously in more recent times tank man who, you know, die hero of our times, no one knows. No one knows. No one knows who he is. I mean, this photo is pretty nondescript. So this is a picture of tank man with his shopping. He's got a bag of shopping. And he's got the most generic pants and the most generic shirt Yeah, but he is standing in the middle of Tiananmen Square with a line of tanks lined up against him so you know clearly a modern hero like absolutely

    Rod 02:39

    and look not a nonzero chance that right there and then he could have been murdered. No, not at all. So

    Will 02:45

    I think people were watching so they could have done it but but we would know that it's just think so I think everything I've read on it says we don't just don't know who he was or what happened and so not knowing suggests either he's like, I don't want anyone to find or because the Communist Party will not love that.

    Rod 03:01

    All probably gotta love generic average height average build guy in same clothes as everyone else carrying up shopping bag.

    Will 03:08

    Yeah, yeah. But maybe maybe he's like the he's like the universal every Matthews, or there's, there's martyrs in science. There's not as many. There's not as many. So the world of religion.

    Rod 03:18

    We're surrounded by them. No one will work the weekend.

    Will 03:22

    Okay, yeah, work the weekend. No, I looked at I dug around, I dug around, I thought, are there any martyrs in science? And there's there's a couple that are sort of valorized a little bit. The first one is a little bit tangential. He's not necessarily a scientist. But he's, he's valorized for critical thinking. It's our old friend Socrates. So

    Rod 03:44

    Was he Mercury boy?

    Will 03:45

    Not Mercury hemlock. He was. He was accused of corrupting the youth or impiety. Or both, actually, and corrupting the youth meant making them think differently. And ask questions. Not quite science, but it's pretty close. But not so he had a one day trial. And his fellow citizens of Athens said, Okay, you can have execution. And you've got to execute yourself though. Yeah, of course. drink. You drink your potion of hemlock. The I don't know what that does to you.

    Rod 04:13

    Makes you die.

    Will 04:14

    Probably. Yes. Yeah. That was known that was known. To do it yourself are the masters of science. There's this guy who Giordano Bruno? Oh, yeah, I know him. Yeah. 16th century Dominican friar and cosmologist. He was burned at the stake by the Roman Inquisition for denying some key Catholic dogma. They say that he denied some dogma, but he did a lot of good cosmology and math on the site. So he did good math, and then was martyred. So I'm not quite sure if he was defending science.

    Rod 04:41

    I think I know, in one of my trips to Rome, I stood in the square or actually, no, it didn't. I had a delicious cocktail. Stop it in the square where he was standing. Cool, and yeah, the tour guide, dude pointed it out. And I was like, Oh, I have mixed feelings.

    Will 04:57

    It's really grotesque.

    Rod 04:58

    Horrifying,

    Will 04:58

    it's grotesque. Fine.

    Rod 04:59

    Um, you thought wrong, you must die now and not only die horrifically,

    Will 05:04

    Yes. Oh God, God. Then there's this guy. Antoine Lavoisier famous chemist did a lot of stuff that you learned in high school Lavoisier things. He did some good chemistry. And he was definitely executed during the French Revolution, but probably not for anything science related.

    Rod 05:21

    I think we think it's a wig.

    Will 05:22

    No, it was..

    Rod 05:23

    He looks a bit toffee He was selling adulterated tobacco. So he was doing chop chop on the side during the French Revolution. And now they were like, buddy, You're mixing it with gum leaves or dirt. That's not good enough.

    Will 05:38

    But today, I'm going to tell you about a different matter. A man who fought one epidemic that was killing millions of babies, and another epidemic that was killing millions of mothers, and then died for the cause of washing your hands. Welcome to the wholesome show,

    Rod 06:14

    A podcast that cleanses in the waters from the whole of science cleanses in the waters from the whole,

    Will 06:22

    the wholesome show is me will grant

    Rod 06:25

    and me a clean Roderick Lambert's cleanse I should say

    Will 06:28

    before I tell you about the hero and martyr in this story, I gotta I gotta set a bit of context going here. I'm going to set the scene and I'm gonna start with the first epidemic that I mentioned before, it had happened for forever. For as long as there had been people. It seems like this terrible epidemic had been happening. But some they started to take notice of it in the 18th and 19th centuries. They started to care. They started as I'll tell you in a second to take some action. What was it Leeches? No. They'll come up later.

    Rod 06:59

    Drink mercury. No, but Yes, that'll come up later too Like burn yourself like not as into death. But like cook yourself. Freeze yourself. Slap oneself in the genitalia In the genitalia? No, sorry, it was infanticide. I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, I started researching this story thinking, I'm going to jail.

    Will 07:22

    No, Ithought this guy this guy. He's a hero of science. I didn't know that the backstory was so grotesque.

    Rod 07:29

    So okay, well, they seem sick.

    Will 07:31

    Let's kill them. Or they might get cigars kill them. No, no intentional killing, as a preventive measure intentional killing of infants or offspring, usually as a way to dispose of unwanted children.

    Rod 07:42

    Oh, that's not an epidemic.

    Will 07:43

    I just happened a lot. That's just your go. I need a boy. Okay, not technical term of epidemic, not necessarily go a little boy. It could be sometimes though. Often it's just unwanted children. And I'm not going into this here. I'm just setting this as the backdrop. But it had happened for forever. There's some periods where it seems to have been almost 50% of children.

    Rod 08:05

    Are we talking to Europe here? Everywhere,

    Will 08:08

    Everywhere like that there is there is no country where there aren't histories of infanticide. But

    Rod 08:14

    I'm not surprised.

    Will 08:16

    But the thing is, in the 18th and 19th centuries, people in Europe started to pay attention. Okay, they started say, Hang on what the hell is going on here? This is something that we should do something about.

    Rod 08:28

    I've noticed a lot of babies being killed. Have you noticed that too?

    Will 08:32

    A lot of babies being killed also. And this frickin horrifies me. A lot of babies just around like just sort of around? Yeah, there was there was some writer this was written in the Journal of Social Sciences in the 19th century. It's been said of the police with too much truth that they think no more of finding the dead body of a child in the streets than picking up a dead cat or dog.

    Rod 08:56

    I don't want to do any of those. No, I've no, no. So why don't want to be a cop for the corpses. I don't want to do that.

    Will 09:01

    It's just horrendous.

    Rod 09:03

    It's so when you say around you don't? You don't mean like live babies. You mean non live babies lying around? In the public?

    Will 09:11

    Yeah, they were.

    Rod 09:12

    This is good. I like where you're going with this. This is the way to end where there is a hero. There is a hero. I will give you a hero. It's very hard not to be a hero in the story so far. What did you do? I didn't kill a baby. The man or woman? I feel like I'm the hero of the story at the moment.

    Will 09:29

    I'm sorry. I said I was sorry.

    Rod 09:30

    I just I'm not upset. I'm more intrigued.

    Will 09:32

    So as I said in the 18th and 19th centuries, people started to pay attention to like there's this whole bunch of sensationalist reporting, which is not not really that sensationalist. It's just saying Holy fuck. Why are there all of these dead? Babies

    Rod 09:47

    Look at the baby everywhere. That will be called reporting.

    Will 09:51

    You know, Paige Matheson has written on this. The horrors of child murder were sensationalised in the press I this is one of the few times this is one of the few times where the words sensationalist really feels to me pretty appropriate.

    Rod 10:03

    What not? I'm going to say at what level? Is it?

    Will 10:06

    Not sensationalised?

    Rod 10:07

    Yeah. It's not sensational. It's all sensational.

    Will 10:09

    It wasn't. It wasn't

    Rod 10:11

    like there are lots of dead babies that is sensationalising it. You mentioned it and it's sensational, so to speak.

    Will 10:16

    Yep. Horrifying cases of infanticide were often published local and national newspapers identified public areas such as parks and streets where the bodies of infants were found. Damn, yeah, yeah. So so I'm leaving that we just needed as a backdrop that it was pretty frickin common and pretty frickin horrible.

    Rod 10:31

    I was in such a good mood before we pushed record and now I'm like, I'll get you back then alone. And

    Will 10:35

    I'll get you back there.

    Rod 10:36

    You know, I have no affinity for children. I barely like humans. Adults drive me crazy children on and you're not even existing it so don't worry, I'm fine.

    Will 10:42

    The key thing is that in that time, people started thinking, okay, what can we do about this? We got to stem the tide.

    Rod 10:51

    Stop killing children

    Will 10:52

    that they did, but then they want to actually, you know, put some sort of policy intervention

    Rod 10:57

    Oh, make a choice. policies don't kill children.

    Will 11:00

    I'm gonna zoom in on one particular so it was all over the place. But we're gonna go with the Austro Hungarian empire is that man the Austro Hungarian against Joseph the second

    Rod 11:09

    I've heard of him.

    Will 11:09

    Ah, he was one of the one of the pretty good so far as they come Austro Hungarian emperors, I don't know a lot about Emperor's he was meant to be pretty liberal. And he was pretty keen on reform and all of this kind of thing. His sister was Marie Antoinette. So Oh, yeah, she got the chop in the French Revolution. But not as a child. He wanted to do things. He wanted to have an impact. He wanted to make a difference here

    Rod 11:31

    He's allowed.

    Will 11:32

    In 1784. He did two things that that really started to be a bit of a change here. He wasn't the first but he was sort of early on in this to try and make a difference to all this infanticide.

    Rod 11:43

    It's such a bizarre

    Will 11:45

    The first thing he did was to set up what are called foundlings homes. So these are orphanages we often call them now but the key point about them was that they're you know, inside a city, they had a little door or a little gate, or a little

    Rod 12:01

    or child's doors.

    Will 12:02

    Small child draw a little draw, draw or a little wheel,

    Rod 12:06

    Don't even want children

    Will 12:07

    Where you can drop off your children. And so,

    Rod 12:11

    So like a library, after hours,

    Will 12:13

    Exactly like an after hours library. Certainly. I'll tell you more about that in a second. But it really is. So you could come dead of night, Dawn of morning anytime you want and pull out the drawer, or turn the wheel or open the hatch, whatever it is, whatever your preferred, slide the infant in, and then you're done. You've done your duty and baby goes on to

    Rod 12:36

    Elsewhere.

    Will 12:37

    Elsewhere.

    Rod 12:38

    You have been in duty,

    Will 12:40

    They were 100% used, like very used. So the one is Vienna that he was funding between 1784 and 1854 70 years 293,554 Babies

    Rod 12:53

    In Vienna?

    Will 12:54

    In Vienna, medium sized city, not huge, 250,000 population. In fact, you know, the population 2000 that many people plus a bit over that 70 years were dropped off huge numbers. How do you even visualise those numbers? I thought well, what's

    Rod 13:08

    800 Amazon quarters of an Amazon jungle before it's been completely denuded?

    Will 13:12

    It is not

    Rod 13:14

    11 million soccer balls a day in a swimming pool.

    Will 13:17

    No, it's not that. Yeah, I thought let's do a day rate. Okay, so how many babies are getting dropped off every day? During that? 70 years? Yeah, that whole 70 year period. So it averages out to be like 11 or 12 Babies per day.

    Rod 13:29

    So that doesn't sound as bad.

    Will 13:30

    It's still a lot stronger. It's a lot of babies going into the baby ship.

    Rod 13:33

    It's a city of what is it? 250,000 and mall and up Yeah. And look, they're probably a bit bored. There's no TV. There's no internet. So there's there's a lot of the banging and a lot of

    Will 13:43

    Are you saying they bang more than us?

    Rod 13:43

    Yeah. And without the contraception stepsons.

    Will 13:44

    That's true. That's true. Apparently

    Rod 13:45

    Catholic area?

    Will 13:45

    Yes. And they said that the city was potentially 10% prostitutes with a not not a lot of contraception so it seems to be though there was a lot of a lot of baby making

    Rod 14:00

    Honestly then I'm gonna say I think that number is surprisingly low

    Will 14:04

    11 per day through the little baby draw

    Rod 14:06

    I think you mean to say only 11 per day

    Will 14:08

    So they drop off the baby and and then you get to a family home so everything solved

    Rod 14:12

    Sweet There's food there's education there's there's interesting activities. Parents waiting to take these babies on am I guessing correctly so far?

    Will 14:21

    You're guessing completely inaccurately

    Rod 14:23

    So wrong?

    Will 14:23

    Completely wrong, completely wrong.

    Rod 14:25

    Oh. I'm surprised.

    Will 14:27

    Codell and Barbara Carter wrote this book Childbed Fever and I'm going to use a lot of a lot of their book in this and they describe the situation with 1000s of babies dropped off. Only a few babies survived each year. Many died of congenital syphilis. We'll come to that later.

    Rod 14:42

    The babies?

    Will 14:43

    The babies.

    Rod 14:44

    I bet that's a pleasant death.

    Will 14:45

    Yeah. Yep. Most died in the in terrible gastrointestinal epidemics that periodically swept through the bloody flux that yeah, killing virtually all the otherwise healthy inmates.

    Rod 14:57

    Dehydration is really good for people.

    Will 14:58

    One British physician went to go on Visiting time, and he said, each of the babies would be provided with a comforter that's made of like linen wrap, and it's got bread and milk inside

    Rod 15:08

    And a little arsenic just to ease them off.

    Will 15:10

    I don't think they I don't think they did any murdering here.

    Rod 15:14

    Oh, I feel like a comforter in that time would have been like, Okay, you get a piece of wood instead of a rock to chew on.

    Will 15:21

    It's not far, this food was supposed to be changed every 24 hours. But in many cases, it was only renewed after a few days. This piece of fermenting filth was stuffed into the child's mouth at every opportunity. One minute hot cold the next and always saturated with saliva. No wonder it was most efficient means of propagating the disease. So,

    Rod 15:38

    Well did they test that there could have been better ones? It's quite a pronouncement without any evidence.

    Will 15:45

    Yet, okay, there are better ways of propagating.

    Rod 15:47

    Thanks, please.

    Will 15:47

    We'll come to that in a bit. Next on to that in a bit. I told you. I told you this episode is chock a block with great, grotesque sad death

    Rod 15:55

    Factoids.

    Will 15:56

    So of those 293,000 Babies about 80%. So 228,000 died before they were old enough to become adopted or discharged. In the first few years, 97% of all the children died.

    Rod 16:09

    So all I'm hearing is 3% lived. I'm a glass 3% Full kind of guy

    Will 16:12

    It blows my mind how horrific this is.

    Rod 16:15

    So honestly, you know what I I'd love to say it does, but it doesn't, for example, and this is obvious, obvious segway here. Whenever I talk to my much better half about time travel, you know, standard conversation. There's no, there's no going back. You're only going forward. Oh, no. My attitude is I'd love to go back to so many ancient places. But my problem is medical care. You can take it with you. Can I can I take like your

    Will 16:35

    first aid CTC first aid kit, and some band aid off

    Rod 16:38

    A whole pharmacy?

    Will 16:39

    Oh, my God. Oh, my. Yeah. Look, I

    Rod 16:41

    My biggest concern about travel backwards.

    Will 16:44

    I think you get back in the time machine.

    Rod 16:45

    I would hope so. Unless you've caught the bloody flux on the pathway to When you get back in it quickly. Anyway. Anyway, yes, that 3% survived. Yay for them.

    Will 17:00

    I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I wanted to tell the story of this hero. He's a hero, but he's fighting against some bad stuff here.

    Rod 17:06

    He's not doing a lot yet. Okay. But I like the background. Do you know what because it's going to make his heroes isms.

    Will 17:12

    So the second thing that our Emperor did, he set up the founding homes. And he also said, Okay, let's get some maternity hospitals. So people can give birth in better ways. And we can we can help them so they're not so

    Rod 17:25

    Not actually on a live pile of dung and straw.

    Will 17:27

    Yeah, yeah. Okay. So he set up the Vienna maternity home. Here, women of all stations could give birth anonymously and freely and stay there as long as they wanted afterwards, at some stage for a couple of months after they gave birth. In return for the free services. Yeah, they just had to be available for open instructional purposes for the training of the doctors and the midwives.

    Rod 17:47

    Oh, that has implications.

    Will 17:49

    It's doesn't seem terrible No, it's like the doctors are coming through and saying, okay, that there is a pregnant lady. And as counsel, not the students on that, yes. And the students will note that and they go, Oh, cool. Okay.

    Rod 17:52

    Isn't it? Now we're gonna move on to the next bed where there's someone who's pregnant a month ago, another premise one, two months ago, exactly. In exchange for what food and basic survival,

    Will 18:10

    Food and basic survival, that kind of thing, they also have to do a little bit of knitting, a little bit of cleaning, and some served as wet nurses for the

    Rod 18:17

    I was wondering, I assume there's a woman with a baby on every possible servicing implement,

    Will 18:23

    They took this a good deal.

    Rod 18:25

    What year are we getting? We're looking the

    Will 18:26

    this is like between seven and 84 and 1830.

    Rod 18:29

    So being on the the object of study for aspiring medical folk in that period, could very easily turn horrific, you know, the drop of a hat. So this sounds actually quite remarkably good.

    Will 18:41

    Well, they could they could, while they're being studied. And there was certainly while there are certainly people that were a little bit worried about that they were like, that's a little bit intimate. I don't like, but they could preserve their anonymity. And so

    Rod 18:53

    They would wear a mask.

    Will 18:54

    Yes. Like there were there were women that would go in here and wear a mask and not like a modern face, mouth mask, but a whole face mask the whole time,

    Rod 19:03

    like Zara think you just can't quite see everything around the eyes.

    Will 19:06

    Probably.

    Rod 19:07

    You'd have no idea who I am. I could be anybody.

    Will 19:10

    I don't know if Zara is giving birth in the Vienna hospital.

    Rod 19:13

    But you don't know that's that's my percent next week.

    Will 19:15

    So they would also like they wouldn't tell anyone their name if they don't want to. And that would help with them that they would go in. Because spoiler, the death rate was a little bit high, sometimes

    Rod 19:25

    Among the mumsies?

    Will 19:26

    Among the mumsies.

    Rod 19:27

    Oh good god yes.

    Will 19:27

    So they would write their name and they're like next of kin, they're their friends or their neighbours. And they'd write it and put it on the shelf above them in a sealed envelope. And so when people died, they could just go oh, we need we know who to alert afterwards.

    Rod 19:38

    What a chipper. Well, here's my I've signed the consent forms. I'm going to put my shoes over here. Here's the envelope open after I'm dead.

    Will 19:44

    I am very happy with next of kin procedures, but we sort of you know, we talk about next of kin very much okay, if there's an emergency to do it, but the fact that they very much knew or solid chance you might die. Yeah, right. Just write a name down so we can do something with the body.

    Rod 19:57

    Listen, we're gonna give you a sandwich in a moment. Yep. That's fine. Just give us a name is equivalent parchment.

    Will 20:03

    So as I said, it seemed like a really good deal. And the Vienna one was actually a really, it was probably more progressive than the most because they all got their own guaranteed bed, one bed per patient I was reading at the same time. Sure. At the same time, there was a similar clinic in Paris at the Hotel Dieu, where there was generally three or four patients in each bed, the pregnant and the recently delivered the disease and the healthy prostitutes and married women all will mix together indiscriminately.

    Rod 20:30

    Were the prostitutes still working at the time

    Will 20:32

    It's possible

    Rod 20:33

    That does add another layer. Yeah, so I assume a bed is single?

    Will 20:38

    Well these beds here look a little bit bigger. Like I think than the beds that they combined, maybe they go down to like your bed shop and just go get a couple of beds, we can get they don't look a lot like hospital beds, they look like very, you could fit a few people in these beds. But I don't know if I want to be lying in a bed where someone is delivering a baby at the same time.

    Rod 20:59

    And banging a client as next to them?

    Will 21:02

    There was one story as well. I love this that apparently, I think this was in the Vienna hospital. The nurses sometimes would work 24 hour shifts, and and they didn't have facilities to sleep in. So they would sleep in the same rooms of the patients or occasionally in the same beds as the patient.

    Rod 21:18

    What the hell, how else do you get to know them that you can really feel what's right and wrong.

    Will 21:22

    If you want to if you want to give proper care. You need to understand your patient fully and intimately.

    Rod 21:26

    And proper care involves night hugs. So I want to be a nurse, are you serious? You want to be a nurse? I think it's hard enough now.

    Will 21:37

    I salute I salute all of the all of the heroes in this store. I salute all the heroes, the bed makers anyway, as I said, the women of Vienna they love this. It was free care free food free bed, you just got to get looked at a little bit, but you can put on a mask and do some cleaning or some knitting and something like 97% of the pregnant women of Vienna took advantage of it. They

    Rod 21:58

    What?

    Will 21:59

    Yeah, huge numbers, huge numbers. They're like, Yes, let's go there. But there was a problem.

    Rod 22:04

    Oh, was it the decor?

    Will 22:06

    You see a rumour going around and it was pretty accurate that while hospitals are free, they call them houses of death, because

    Rod 22:15

    it's a fun little nickname

    Will 22:17

    They kind of were. And that brings us to the second epidemic. I'll tell you about that after this break.

    Brianna Ansaldo 22:28

    If you're loving the wholesome show, why don't you put those wholesome feelings to good use and leave a five star review on Apple podcasts? Hey, I'm Brianna the head honcho here at Bamby Media and the new producer for these two PhD dirtbags as you probably know already wrote and will really, really, really suck at talking themselves up or promoting this podcast. They are useless. That's where I come in. We have big plans for this podcast and leaving a review really helps the podcasting Gods aka Apple and Spotify recognise that the wholesome show is worth spotlighting. So if you're loving the show, take a moment head to Apple podcasts and leave a written review. If you're listening on Spotify, you can't actually leave a written review at this point. But you can still leave them a five star rating. If you'd like a super cool, Wholesome Show truckers hat, make sure to screenshot the review and email or tweet the guys and they'll get in contact to fling you a hat

    Rod 23:34

    People don't realise this in that breaker is it actually in real world went for four and a half hours and I went and saw a therapist? I feel good.

    Will 23:40

    My goal here is to make you feel happy about the world.

    Rod 23:43

    I already am and it's already working. Whenever I hear a story about old medicine, I'm like wow, that's interesting. And also AHA and but then then the next thing I think is people in 50 years better yet 100 years are gonna go you frickin animals. So damn,

    Will 23:56

    I hope I really hope that whatever we've been doing the they will have improved on

    Rod 24:01

    They will be horrified. Think about surgery. Surgery is butchery. We just have better drugs. Right?

    Will 24:06

    Are you down with the Star Trek surgery sort of wave so wave waves wave a science wand.

    Rod 24:10

    And a light comes out and you're like, oh, that I no longer have cerebral edoema You've heard it 1000 times.

    Will 24:16

    I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. This is this is this is one of one of the things I want to do is provoke an emotion of loving the present in you. Yes. So here's what the houses of death were all about. At the time it was called Childbed Fever. Because you got a fever. When you're in the child bed, the bed where you

    Rod 24:37

    From whence a child springs forth.

    Will 24:38

    So here's his account. This is from Carter and Carter's Childbed Fever. This is a pretty typical account they reckon. Mrs. Why? A lady knit near the Abbey. Young enough strong and healthy habit after a labour perfectly natural, was suddenly attacked with a violent shivering fit the third day after delivery. She was affected with a thrilling uncommon sensation As if a cold wet sheet had been applied around her body, and she complained of headache and was sick at the stomach. During the excess of febrile heat.

    Rod 25:08

    She had a fever.

    Will 25:08

    Her pulse beat 130 times in a minute, and was more full and strong than usual in this fever. Her countenance was florid and much altered from its natural state having an unusual stare with the eyes. The second day after the the attack of violent bilious purging came on,

    Rod 25:24

    Oh, during

    Will 25:25

    The fever and diarrhoea continued very violently for three days, her belly swelled and she frequently complained of much pain at the bottom of her stomach.

    Rod 25:33

    Is this is post childbirth?

    Will 25:34

    Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, post delivery. There seemed to be obscure signs of a remission in the morning, but towards the evening, her fever again returned with violence. various treatments were tried. We'll come to them in a second. But she became delirious, her eyes bloodshot and filled with involuntary tears. At the same time, lesions appeared very thick on her breast and body, and her stools which were frequent and very feted came away. insensibly

    Rod 25:56

    You gotta love it when someone says the problem is your shit stinks. And you're like it didn't before. What must have been now

    Will 26:02

    On the 12th day of fever, she died.

    Rod 26:04

    So that 12 days, that in itself is remarkable. So

    Will 26:09

    How bad did it get

    Rod 26:10

    That bad?

    Will 26:11

    That bad times? A lot of people have bad times a lot of people but

    Rod 26:15

    So, same experience for all of them. Yeah. So you went to 24 days? I didn't feel singled out. No, no, they didn't. I don't be laughing at me because I'm the one shitting myself to do they all.

    Will 26:25

    So the first recorded epidemic was at that hotel and sorry, hospital in Paris, in 1646. Yep. And then played to Europe, in America for the next two centuries, it had popped up over and over and over again, these symptoms would turn up in other people otherwise, and we'll come to that later. But definitely this is what they're looking at is women. One day, two days after they've given birth. There's interesting statistics, they vary a bit, wanting 29 Women delivered in the clinics would die. Whereas one in only one in 212 Those who delivered at home so you're much riskier go

    Rod 26:55

    Oh, good god.

    Will 26:57

    Once the symptoms were seen, it was fatal in over 50% of cases, great. Some hospitals average 20% of women dying, like long term over the decades, some epidemics, you would say like an epidemic would wave through a hospital, you get 72 or even 100% of women dying.

    Rod 27:11

    So it's not great.

    Will 27:13

    Do you want to know how they treated it?

    Rod 27:14

    I really do. I like I'm very excited to hear this. Because you know what I love? I bloody love an ancient treatment. I don't care what it's for. And the bombing of the Bedouin they kind of go, Huh, so I've seen a bat and the bat seems quite well, because it just ate something strange and then it could fly off a cliff.

    Will 27:31

    It's not far off back treatment. So here's one approach in 1848 I immediately order eight or a dozen leeches to be scattered over the abdomen.

    Rod 27:40

    Of course no serious apothecary and or barbar would not start with leeches. You'd be laughed out

    Will 27:47

    There is still leech treatment yeah as I've told you before.

    Rod 27:50

    But not for everything.

    Will 27:51

    No

    Rod 27:51

    not for everything after this no not for this seem to be shooting yourself to death. Have you considered removing some blood as well

    Will 27:57

    And then after the leeches you rub on some linseed or brand? Yes. Over the top.

    Rod 28:02

    What are linseed not linseed oil?

    Will 28:04

    So it's a linseed oil bran poultice so are you

    Rod 28:07

    Hot water and a piece of linen.

    Will 28:10

    The vagina to be washed out with tepid water if the the lochia which is vaginal discharge after giving birth, be feted an injection of chlorine of soda bit used large doses of mercury and opium to be given every three hours

    Rod 28:24

    Orally or downstairs?

    Will 28:26

    Really not sure I'm not sure where you're putting the mercury and the opium.

    Rod 28:30

    Please please tell me the mercury is going downstairs because full ingestion not great. I don't know where were you going please put the mercury up my up me.

    Will 28:39

    I don't know if anywhere is better. And I don't know if it's an injection I don't know anything. So

    Rod 28:44

    I reckon it's like a basting kind of situation. They're putting it up places. That's That's my theory

    Will 28:51

    And beef tea administered at 50. You get to drink some beef tea

    Rod 28:54

    Oh Twinings beef tea it's my favourite

    Will 28:56

    The mercury to be pushed to approaching poisoning. When this commences the mercury should be stopped

    Rod 29:02

    I want to let that roll around and let's be fair, that level is any mercury. But for them

    Will 29:09

    They were wildly guessing here

    Rod 29:11

    We're talking about have you got a litre of it?

    Will 29:14

    How much mercury can you take? Should the pain not yield under these means I either apply more leeches or if the strength will not allow of them make use of a turpentine. poultice the effect of the this last in many cases almost magical.

    Rod 29:29

    Yep, I bet it is. It's not I bet it's magical. Just not intended not Wow, that worked quickly.

    Will 29:34

    I like I like that he's finally gone up the turpentine. That's magical. Use that last. Don't use it until the very end though, because you want to you want to try your other things. Here's someone else. The prompt obstruction of blood is called for take from the arm 12 or 30 ounces of blood. So that's like 350 to 900 mils depending of course on the urgency of the case. Yes bleed from a large orifice. Let there Be bold and full stream. In one word, make your patient faint. The next indication will be free action of the bowels. So what you're doing there, make them faint until they shit themselves.

    Rod 30:12

    Shitting yourself. I get it. That's easy to do. I can do it right now. But don't bleed until they faint. Yes, while they've already basically well live close to lethal levels of dehydration. So

    Will 30:21

    I think I think the theory here is, is their blood is too hot, they've got a fever, their blood is running too hot, get the get the blood out, put some mercury

    Rod 30:28

    To make your eyes damp.

    Will 30:32

    In the blood, put some liquid metal in them somehow

    Rod 30:35

    That should help.

    Will 30:36

    Opium would be nice. That doesn't sound the worst, and then giving them an enema.

    Rod 30:39

    Opium is the only good thing I've heard in the last 30 minutes.

    Will 30:47

    Oh my god. So alongside wacky treatments. The only other thing I love about wacky, wacky 18th century medicine is theories on what causes stuff are not the hats they wear.

    Rod 30:58

    While they'll administer it.

    Will 30:59

    So what do you reckon they think caused it?

    Rod 31:02

    Jesus Christ that you should have give me some pre warning on that on because I can't think of anything that wouldn't might have caused the movement of geese migrating across the Capitol. There were some planetaries bananas. Probably lavatory business, a subtle political mood that favoured more one sort of worker or another. I don't think anyone suggested a little celery.

    Will 31:25

    Okay, we've got the usual ones. The tightness of stays and petticoat binding.

    Rod 31:30

    Oh, obviously.

    Will 31:30

    The weight of the pockets which press against the intestines and block excretion. So if your pockets are so heavy, they're stopping you shit, then that might cause

    Rod 31:39

    Also your pants are too high. Your pocket shouldn't be at that high.

    Will 31:42

    I have no idea. I have no idea. But if you've got pockets that are heavy pockets that might cause it

    Rod 31:47

    Do pockets mean the same thing now as they did then?

    Will 31:49

    I don't know. I think maybe not. I think they do. Really? Look they were clutching at straws here. Yeah. What else did they bring straws cause it could be a sedentary inactive lifestyle, improper diet, the attendance of friends in a small room. You know if you've given birth and you've got too many friends around that might...

    Rod 32:03

    You probably die.

    Will 32:05

    Large fires rendering the air foul and unfit for respiration. large fires strong liquors mixed with warm waters.

    Rod 32:11

    Yeah, that should kill you opium and mercury however, no worries.

    Will 32:15

    Or your liquid with cold water. That's fine.

    Rod 32:18

    That's true. I need I need a schooner of Jim Beam in cold water.

    Will 32:22

    Too many coverings you get too many bed sheets on Buddha. Damage to the birth canal. Which doesn't sound dumb that yeah, they got one rough birthing examination by foreigners.

    Rod 32:31

    They got to by foreigners by foreigners. Look at this. This Swiss gentleman has come in. That's where everyone died.

    Will 32:38

    damp and close houses. Once of cleanliness or miasma, you know.

    Rod 32:42

    The evil air?

    Will 32:44

    The evil air.

    Rod 32:45

    Want of cleanliness. Yeah. I'm going to run with that one. Want of cleanliness?

    Will 32:51

    I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing. It was absolutely want of cleanliness.

    Rod 32:54

    I had an inkling

    Will 32:55

    There is there is.

    Rod 32:57

    This is my first time hearing, showering.

    Will 32:59

    As as I said before we get to turn to the hero of this story, who came along with the solution. Ignaz Philip Semmelweis was born on the first of July.

    Rod 33:09

    Semmelweis? He makes that bread. I don't know

    Will 33:13

    If he does, he was born on the first of July 1818, exactly. 161 years before me.

    Rod 33:18

    Everyone listening see how I dropped in his birthday? Not that he wants to present? Yes, he does.

    Will 33:21

    In Budapest. Yep. He was the fifth child out of 10 have a family of spice and consumer growing merchants. Just spice and consumer

    Rod 33:31

    Spice and groin merchants. Was not very happy.

    Will 33:33

    There are no groyne merchants here. You don't know. They don't even know what a groyne merchant is. Right.

    Rod 33:33

    But they did in Budapest.

    Will 33:33

    I think there were 10% of Vienna was growing merchants at some point. But at age 17, he went and went off to study the law, but then didn't for a reason. No one knows.

    Rod 33:50

    Do you know I often nearly studied the law but then didn't?

    Will 33:52

    For a reason nobody knows. Okay. Yeah, he switched to medicine. Yeah. Because, you know, there's epidemics going around. It's useful.

    Rod 33:58

    And it's basically the same as law.

    Will 34:00

    He was awarded his doctorate in medicine in 1844. He failed to get a get a job in internal medicine. So he decided to specialise in obstetrics on his birthday in 1846. Again, on his birthday is when he got a job at the maternity wing in the Vienna general hospital during your birthday, my birthday. Pretty much straightaway he realised something was wrong.

    Rod 34:19

    Like I shouldn't be here. I'm terrible at this.

    Will 34:21

    Yeah. And so his article he published a bunch of years later, the aetiology concept and prophylaxis of child bed fever. He realised something was wrong because they've made this weirdly sexist decision a few years before before he came. And not weirdly for the time. It's super, super normal to be not sexist, but you're judging the Lucky from us. So what they did they divide the hospital into two clinics that he called clinic one and clinic two.

    Rod 34:46

    Nice, he's the creator.

    Will 34:47

    I'll call them something different because they put all of the boys students in clinic one and all the girls students in clinic two.

    Rod 34:54

    There were girls students?

    Will 34:55

    Yeah, there was there were student midwives, boys students was student obstetrics. So So in a sense, yes, the girls weren't able to do the higher level stuff. But they were still students because student midwives and clinic two and clinic one was for the obstetrics

    Rod 35:09

    That women couldn't do because I like the temperament the science And you know what is so weird? He was like, Okay, let's let's check out on this fever, this child bed fever. All the women are dying for let's look at some records, look at some records. And he was like, it's so freakin weird. If you look at the how many die in clinic one, it's like five times as big as clinic two. Boys were clinic one?

    Will 35:30

    The the boys are clinic one. Okay. So there's five times as many people dying in the boy clinic as the girl clinic.

    Rod 35:37

    Only five times. And?

    Will 35:39

    No, I do mean only five times. Because the boys cheated. The boys cheated. And they got to send anyone who was really sick. They could send them over to the General Hospital. Right? And so they weren't counted in these. They just left so no longer looks. Yeah, exactly. So he's like, okay, there's actually a lot of people dying in the boy clinic in the gauntlet that they didn't publicise these numbers. Why ever, not where the boy clinic was really not good. And he's like, What the hell? What the hell this is, this is weird. So in fact, those numbers are only the women who died in the boy clinic who died too fast to be moved. So all of the others if, if they're getting bad, they're like, get them out of here. They'll ruin the stat

    Rod 36:23

    gotta go, I gotta get out the door. Jesus,

    Will 36:27

    okay, he noted a few other things. And I love the things that he noticed. So the first one helps helps him understand what's going here a lot. Women who had long pre Labor's in the boy clinic were much more likely to get child foot bed fever. But there was no difference in the girl clinic. We had what we had a third thing, the women of Vienna started to realise that this was the house of death.

    Rod 36:49

    Right now there's a lot of what tipped them off?

    Will 36:51

    A lot of dying, a lot of dying, tipped them off. And so a lot of them would go, I still want the free, the free health care afterwards. That's, that's, that's pretty cool. But I don't want to deliver my baby in there. So what I'll do is I'll wander around the streets. And as long as it looks like I'm going towards the hospital, then I'll deliver my baby outside the hospital. Yes. And then I'll carry my this is Semmelweis his words, they were delivered on the streets on the in front of the gates of houses before they can reach hospital, and then carry the infant in their skirts to walk to the maternity hospital.

    Rod 37:26

    Standard, really, still doing it now.

    Will 37:28

    So long as so long as it was fresh. The umbilical cord was still fresh, they would get the treatment they were looking for, like heaps of women to this, like 100

    Rod 37:36

    They got the placenta slung over there.

    Will 37:38

    I don't know. I don't know, baby. I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't know. But they were choosing this rather than going to the hospital.

    Rod 37:46

    Also the word fresh?

    Will 37:47

    Do you know how many? Like I really do. I really do like 100 100 women a month are choosing to give birth, as they're wandering to that they'd sort of walk around the hospital and not go in and give birth outside.

    Rod 37:59

    Cool. That's cool. So really, they're not that different to us. I mean, this is exactly how it happens in all modern cities today. Can you imagine like what's preferable punched in the head until the baby comes out? We'll go in a hospital I'll take punched in the head

    Will 38:16

    I didn't know that was a solution.

    Rod 38:18

    It might as well might as well we don't know how to go for a walk until the baby falls out and then just pick it up and walk to hospital.

    Will 38:25

    That is that is your better solution is delivering on the Oh my God, you've got you've you've got to look at the stats there and go hey, that's weird that the women don't want to come in here that much.

    Rod 38:36

    I just love being outside. I love being outside are very outdoorsy people in Vienna. I know of a renowned for it. i This is cool. You know, I'm lucky. This is like watching a horror movie. Like I love a horror movie. And this is audio equivalent, again, without a supernatural entity yet.

    Will 38:54

    So Semmelweis. He's like, Okay, I got some clues now I need some clues. Now we can we can start trying to solve this. So it was actually him that said, Look, maybe it's the foreigner male students, maybe they're too rough in their examinations. His first attempt was okay reduce the number of students from 42 down to 20 or ban all foreigners and

    Rod 39:15

    The problem is it's the Italians don't know they make people sick can only the Italian men

    Will 39:22

    He thought he thought some people might be too rough.

    Rod 39:24

    Whenever the solution is banned the foreigners you thinking I feel like there might be a symptom

    Will 39:28

    but of course if I feel like it might be just a wild stab in the dark there might be something Oh, you really that's what you want to do. Okay, look,

    Rod 39:37

    But it's an easy split to make. Let me hear you talk your accents wrong

    Will 39:40

    off. It's a thing to try. It's a thing to try

    Rod 39:43

    That's the description it this chapter is called. It's a thing to try. It's

    Will 39:47

    It's a variable, I get it, but it's not. It's not but so we started good one I move on to people with brown shoes. Red Shoes. Semmelweis is the hero of the story, but he has some dumb ideas as well.

    Rod 39:58

    Many heroes do.

    Will 40:00

    You'll be surprised to know, women still died. Really? The next thing they tried is they noticed that the boy clinic and the girl clinic were delivering babies a little bit differently. Right. So the midwives were delivering in one sort of position and the boys were delivering in a different position. So, so they said, Alright, maybe it's that maybe, maybe we do the wrong position,

    Rod 40:18

    I guess positions,

    Will 40:19

    you can guess but I can't remember them. It's like.

    Rod 40:22

    Midwives all fours. Boys on the back

    Will 40:25

    Actually, actually, I gotta tell you, there's a picture of drawing a time of a lithograph of five midwives helping to deliver a baby and there is some, there's some legs and arms in breaching positions. It's very, very strong.

    Rod 40:38

    There are levers there are ropes.

    Will 40:41

    Surprisingly, that didn't help you. Okay. But then, one of Semmelweis his friends, Professor Jacob Kolletschka, he died. Why did he die? Well, he'd been doing a whole bunch of autopsies and cutting up the cutting up the bodies. And, and then, during one, his finger was pricked by a student with the same knife that was being used in the autopsy. You don't want that. Over the next few days, Professor developed exactly the same symptoms from which so many had died. So suddenly, hang on,

    Rod 41:15

    He must be pregnant

    Will 41:16

    and dying of it of it's the obvious conclusion, we have a man who's having a baby in the wrong position. Yeah. And touched by a foreigner.

    Rod 41:24

    The miracle is a man who's having a baby.

    Will 41:27

    So there was the link, he was like, oh, there's something to do with the dead body here. And in fact, you know, when he looked at it, the med students that worked in the hospital, were super keen on dead bodies. The medical students of the hospital regularly spent several hours each day in the morgue, dissecting cadavers. Indeed, in Vienna, the medical students spent so much time in the morgue that it became the customer gathering place where they met and pass time when they're not required to be elsewhere.

    Rod 41:49

    Fuck on board, let's hang with the corpses.

    Will 41:51

    After working in the morgue. Many students also carried parts of the cadavers to their dwellings for further examination. One physician gave this advice for beginners, when you dissect, don't attack all parts of the body at once. The best plan is to take the portion you're examining to your room and keep it fresh by plunging in an alcohol, inspect it with care and note down your observations. By this means ahead will occupy your time for five or six weeks advantageously, you're just allowed to do that. For over six weeks. You just take it home and in your student dorm, you can have the head that you're working on

    Rod 42:21

    Five or six weeks in your college residance?

    Will 42:23

    It gets dunked it in alcohol though, so it's fine.

    Rod 42:26

    Also actually have one personal experience of what leaving something an organ and alcohol for a long time. The one time in psychology I did I was at a time doing psychology or neuro psych where they still would let undergrads cut shit up. And one day I was in a lab and they gave us a bucket of brains human brains bucket human brains, which was in itself like well this is confronting very close yeah. But they'd been in formaldehyde or whatever it was for so long that they there are a uniform kind of yellow colour. Okay, so the same cut it up and can you see that structure is slightly Yes, the yellow line the other things not here. Yeah, kind of and this is the same thing. So ignoring the fact that I held a brain in my hand that you said leave something in our craw for six weeks. It's not great. Better than a head rotting in your

    Will 43:15

    I just don't know if I want to have it in my in my bedroom. I I don't know if I want by Oh, take a thigh over a head.

    Rod 43:25

    And we take the eyes out and we read about it and take the eyes out so turn around so not looking at face to walk and

    Will 43:32

    when you when you've got your girlfriend or boyfriend over you turn that turn that creepy head round. So let's

    Rod 43:37

    No turn it back

    Will 43:39

    slowly shifts back to looking at you

    Rod 43:41

    my preference.

    Will 43:45

    Tom comes out

    Rod 43:46

    I only date medical students for a reason. Now it's turned dark. Okay, take it back. So he had the autopsy pricked his finger.

    Will 43:59

    Yeah. And so he died in the same way. So he died he died in exactly the same sort of fever other people like no, it's totally different because he's mad. He's like, Semmelweis, like, actually, this might be the clue. And the next thing he noticed is all of the all of the obstetric students seem to have this weird cadaver smell on their hands for quite some time. Which is cool. In May 18 747 Semmelweis is like, well, we don't have full evidence of this. We don't know exactly what's going on. But it seems that everyone that does autopsies may be then passing something on to the women. And he said, You know what we could do? We could start washing our hands. Frick, I don't. So after you've touched a dead body, cut up a dead body, do some clothes, wash your hands with bleach. And here's the thing, suddenly the mortality rate in the boy clinic plunged. It was like, in April 1847. It was like 18% Yep. And the next month it was down to 2% 1%. Mom said Oh, damn, so straightaway straightaway, there was like whoa, This actually changes thing and and symbolises like, holy shit. We've solved this problem. He was a little bit sad because he was like, oh, man, I, I did this a lot. Like he said, I'd spent more time in the in the morgue than nearly anyone else. So he said it was bittersweet. None of us knew that we were causing numerous deaths. But they'd fix the problem, hadn't they?

    Rod 45:20

    Sure. No. Why did he go to bleach? Not mercury or wash your hand in leeches? I'm just I'm impressed with that more than anything else. So I hadn't fixed the problem.

    Will 45:28

    No, a lot of people were interested in his dramatic results now, though, watching it all over the place. And a bunch of people were willing to start washing their hands. But a whole bunch of people said, No, I can.

    Rod 45:40

    No, I'm not doing that you're infringing on my rights.

    Will 45:43

    So first thing people said, look that we can't believe you. This seems weird that there's some sort of magical thing between there and there. So this is when they didn't have a germ theory. No. And so a whole bunch of people push back. His bosses said, No, give us some more evidence. Yeah, I don't believe this evidence will work. It's not it's not true. And then he was denied from connect, collecting any more

    Rod 46:02

    Good idea if you can't prove it, stop them.

    Will 46:05

    Other people said he'd found nothing new even though anyway. And then this is the bit that I loved the best. A whole bunch of these people said no, I'm not washing my hand because that's what labourers is do. I'm a gentleman. If you're saying My hands are unclean, then screw you.

    Rod 46:20

    You sir are insulting me and my family. Fuck me that you have social attitude things great. So Semmelweis. He didn't have a good journey over the next few years. So he discovered something that radically changed the fact that all of these women were dying. And he had implemented it and it had worked in his hospital, But he scorned the wealthy

    Will 46:41

    It was ignored when his contract came up for renewal. Just two years after showing these results. Someone else got the job the day his term expired. He asked Can you make me like a docent, which means I can be like a private lecturer who can teach and they denied him for for 18 months saying you can't you can't be on campus. He can't do

    Rod 47:00

    Are you still washing your hands? Yes. Well, then you can't

    Will 47:00

    Exactly they refused him access to any of the teaching facilities and the cadavers. And he's like fuck, and he got so pissed off and he left. He left Vienna, he returned home to Budapest. He apparently left without so much as saying goodbye to his former friends and colleagues. He was unable to endure further frustrations in dealing with the Viennese medical establishment. For the next few years, he worked as like a voluntary head physician at an obstetrics Ward and he helped them like they all reduce child bed fever quite a lot. But no one else accepted his ideas. He was outraged by the indifference of the medical profession like

    Rod 47:36

    it's nuts when you can literally go see that and see that the difference is clear. What do you think? Now you call me a commoner? Yep, that is exactly not what I'm doing. I believe you can't be that can't be that you've called me a commoner. That's what you did. Cool. That never happens anymore. They think well, we fix them. He started writing angry letters. Dear, sir.

    Will 47:55

    Angry open letters to all prominent European obstetrician. So like write a letter and publishing the paper and call it to all obstetricians or to this particular professor or to this particular person. He called them a murderer, as he called them, all sorts of things. They're full of business and desperation. And in mid 1865, his public behaviour became exasperating and embarrassing to his friends and his family. He began to drink a lot. He spent progressively more time away from his family, sometimes in the company of a prostitute, his wife began to notice changes in his sexual behaviour.

    Rod 48:27

    You want to do it? We've never done that before. Oh, sorry, I forgot.

    Will 48:29

    There seems to be one particular visit. On 13th of July 1865. The Semmelweis family visited friends and during the visit, his behaviour seemed particularly inappropriate. I don't know what it was. I really I tried to look. After that, one of his colleagues invited him to look at how sanitation was working in one of the new asylums in Vienna, and tricked him into having him committed.

    Rod 48:53

    I was just gonna say, can we have a look at this stick your head in here? It's gonna be fine. Okay, so they committed him? Yep. And then 14 days after being committed, he tried to escape, and was beaten viciously by the guards and died of a septic attack. Did they not wash their hands?

    Will 49:09

    It was exactly the same. It was he died of the same sort of fever. This is him aged 42, which is younger than me.

    Rod 49:16

    42 life has been hard.

    Will 49:21

    It's assumed it's assumed by some people that maybe he'd caught syphilis, as many obstetricians had.

    Rod 49:27

    Again, back to the time machine. If I do, I'm wearing a plastic bag on my head.

    Will 49:32

    Full Body condom. Yeah, full body. Just I don't want anything. years after some Semmelweis' death, another Austrian obstetrician, Carl Mayrhofer published an essay in which he argued that child bed fever was invariably caused by micro organisms, potentially coming from the cadavers that they were seeing. That too was rejected. It took a few decades, until eventually, Louis Pasteur would find enough evidence to say This is this is what's going on here that micro organisms and they can come in dead bodies cause disease. So the lesson the lesson of washing your damn hands particularly after handling a corpse it took a long time to come through

    Rod 50:16

    what is it turn? old ideas don't get reasoned out that you have to wait for the holders of those ideas to die I'm paraphrasing is that Kuhn was that popper

    Will 50:25

    That was Kuhn

    Rod 50:26

    Yeah Kuhn it's such an annoying and clear example of that so i For fuck sake, guys, stop it look just looks like a moment. In theory, in theory, look at the differences. No, be called me a labourer. Only labourers wash their hands.

    Will 50:41

    I just I read that and I just go seriously, you can't you can't take that but not well.

    Rod 50:47

    You never know what's going to be an insult in a different time and place but so outrageous, beaten to death by asylum guards are beaten nearly to death and then infected to death.

    Will 50:56

    So I think he I think he is a martyr to science that he fought for hand washing, and maybe there are other causes here. And yeah, they the guards weren't telling him to wash his hands. But that was the thing he was fighting for all this time. All of the establishment rejected him at every single turn. And yet he's saved millions of lives.

    Rod 51:13

    And it's easy to mock from this position because the idea that handwashing isn't useful video is bad is obviously anathema button. Come on. Here's the two what is it? The boys and the girls lab is wanting to look at the huge differences. Now we've done that. Look at the change. Yeah, can't be that. No, the one thing that can't be is the only thing you changed.

    Will 51:34

    So I'm sorry for making you sad.

    Rod 51:35

    No I'm happy because I wash my hands.

    Will 51:38

    A couple of sources. So from the British Medical Journal infanticide.

    Rod 51:42

    Did you go the murdical journal that makes sense actually

    Will 51:44

    British Medical Journal, Infanticide and Excessive Infant Mortality. Caroline M. de Costas Medical Journal of Australia on the contagiousness of childhood fever, Semmelweis, his own article The Etiology of childhood fever It really wasn't called wash your hands, you idiots? The Carter and Carter Childbed fever book, which, which they noted in the introduction, they wrote this little pissy introduction, delightful introduction. You're awesome, Curtis, I love you, which they said it was going to be called houses of death. But the publishers found the title too dramatic as authors, we still judge our original intended title to best reflect the content and tone of the book.

    Rod 52:21

    Pretty bloody clear. It does.

    Will 52:22

    What about the Museum of contraception and abortion? The Vienna founding and offerings homes right

    Rod 52:27

    Wait. The Museum of contraception and abortion.

    Will 52:30

    Yes, there is.

    Rod 52:31

    Where is that?

    Will 52:31

    I don't know. In the world in the in the place. Sydney Morning Herald article Would baby hatches have saved Lily Grace, and the world of the Habsburg the Vienna founding home between welfare and population policy. I just wanted to find a little addendum that baby hatches are still in use in a number of countries in the world.

    Rod 52:49

    For the purpose intended originally?

    Will 52:51

    But your baby in Pakistan has like 300 Germany has more than 100.

    Rod 52:55

    Germany.

    Will 52:56

    I think there's bunch in Austria, there's a bunch in Germany, Australia has zero.

    Rod 52:59

    Should we have them?

    Will 53:00

    I think we should. I think we should. I think it's one of those things where you think the foundling version is a lot better than it was like you should we can give a lot better care than they could do back then. But Shroff the historian and Hagen both has shown that between 1849 and 1903, no woman was executed as Britain for the first infanticide of a newborn baby

    Rod 53:23

    first. That's cool. Wait a minute, second strike. Once it's an accident twice. We're seeing a pattern

Brianna Ansaldo
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