Written By Brianna Ansaldo
 

If you were knocking on death’s door and the door wasn’t opening quickly enough, would you want to be able to give it a shove yourself?

To have agency over your death is a tricky subject, but that hasn’t stopped Philip Nitschke from diving into it head first.

To understand why Nitschke felt compelled to go down such an onerous path, let’s first give you a sense of his personality as a young chap.

When he was 18, someone stole Nitschke's car radio. The police weren’t too concerned about it so Nitschke waited in the boot of his car with a 0.22 calibre rifle for the thief to come back for the car speakers.

That may seem slightly bonkers to a regular human being, but Nitschke needed to serve some justice and solve his own problem.

As a young med school graduate, feeling compelled to help people solve their own problems too, Nitschke was intrigued by the idea of euthanasia for those that wanted to end their lives peacefully and on their own terms.

And in 1996, in the Northern Territory, Nitschke became the first doctor in the world to administer a legal, lethal, voluntary injection.

As a result, Nitschke became an outspoken advocate and crusader for euthanasia. As you can imagine, it hasn’t been an easy road, but it certainly hasn’t been boring.

Nitschke invented death machines, originated a euthanasia flash mob and created a Comedy Festival show entitled “Dicing with Dr Death”. The reviews were actually pretty good!

And yes, you did read that right. Death machines are a real thing. Dying in a peaceful, reliable and dignified manner is surprisingly difficult. Nitschke’s newest death machine iteration (which currently only exists in VR form) is called Sarco (named after sarcophagus) and looks like it belongs in a Tesla display centre. 

Why has Nitschke fought so hard for our right to die? And what is the state of voluntary assisted dying  (and his medical licence) now? Also - what happened to that car radio thief? 

Jump on into this episode and find out.

 
 
 

  • Will 00:00

    Every one of us has wondered pondered about the end of our lives. It'd be great to end in a blaze of glory to go out to Valhalla to die on stage, playing a guitar solo that is just so epic that we literally explode in an orgiastic supernova. But we don't all get to do that. And in fact, we all probably are going to end our lives in far more normal ways. But should we have a choice? Should we have a choice about what happens at the end and when we should be able to do this? And if maybe we should be supported in this. Philip Nitschke is a pioneering Australian in the sense that he said, Well, maybe people have the right and maybe they should be helped by the medical establishment. This story explores what it means to come to the end of our lives, how we might make our deaths on our terms, our choosing, and make it cool.

    Rod 01:02

    Happy Friday, Bill Hill.

    Will 01:04

    Happy Friday or whatever day listen you're listening to this.

    Rod 01:07

    For me. It's Friday. Are you ready for a brain teaser? Riddle? puzzle? Clue hunt.

    Will 01:12

    Ooh, yes.

    Rod 01:14

    It's gonna it's gonna be time to play. Yeah. What's the connection?

    Will 01:19

    I dread to think that that is the usual game.

    Rod 01:24

    Today, William James, what's the connection between an Adelaide University PhD laser physics graduate? Okay, that's one a brief highly inflammatory Australian law that was enacted and then retracted in the late 1990s. An Expat French academic at the University of Western Australia who died in 2002. I saw coming together is and

    Will 01:48

    Now I'm thinking there's a law about expat French academics

    Rod 01:51

    Of course you are the lesser known go away Frenchie law from 1990 to a one off show at a Melbourne Comedy Festival. Right. So coming together? No, a legitimate registered Brewing Company that literally sells just one or two items. And none of those are beer. And a very specific kind of annual trade fair in Amsterdam that recently showcased a promising piece of sci fi looking tech. And it led Newsweek to call it invented the Elon Musk of that industry

    Will 02:24

    Yes, the Elon Musk have something...

    Rod 02:27

    Not cars

    Will 02:27

    Something you know, you give me the Elon Musk of building sandcastles. Yes, the Elon Musk of toenail clippers,

    Rod 02:36

    that, that I'd like to see the Tesla toenail clipper.

    Will 02:38

    Maybe maybe the Elon Musk of toenail clippers was 50 years ago. I don't know.

    Rod 02:42

    So all this is set against a backdrop of a moral quandary that's plagued humans for a very long time.

    Will 02:47

    Should we let French people into Western Australia?

    Rod 02:49

    Yeah. Can you see the connection? You got the thread?

    Will 02:51

    I don't quite have it. I don't quite have it. Yeah,

    Rod 02:55

    what's really, it's all down to one Australian chap by the name of Philip Nitschke.

    Will 03:20

    Welcome to the wholesome show, the podcast that should never be left alone with the whole of science

    Rod 03:28

    A clean one. The Wholesome Show is me Will Grant and me I'm okay being left alone around the house once Lambert's column rod?

    Will 03:36

    Oh look, I'm excited. Very, very excited. I'm very, very excited. I have a hint in my mind. Well, you know, who are you don't know my big moustache came out with lots of wacky German theories in the late 18th 19th century.

    Rod 03:50

    That's the man killed God killed God didn't kill God. But God came back. So Philip Nitschke. He was born in 1947 Skene. Niche no not Nietzsche, Nitschke. Born in 1947 in South Australia. All right now I drew a bunch of this comes from an economist article plus a bunch of new sources and stuff, but so a lot of it will come out of this. And they go to say, even at age 18, Nitschke he demonstrated a flair for taking the law into his own hands.

    Will 04:18

    Not the only 18 year old No, after

    Rod 04:21

    thieves stole their radio from his car that was parked outside of dance. So it's thief stole it.

    Will 04:25

    My mind goes straight to the spoiler of who he is and things laser physics. You look hooked him up to a laser physics machine.

    Rod 04:34

    The police told him it was too small and affair for him to pursue what they weren't like, come on. It's a radio.

    Will 04:39

    You let that happen. Yes. And next thing is genocide.

    Rod 04:42

    So he basically said Alright, I'm going to take this into my own hands. So he spent two Saturday nights in a row after that, hiding in the boot trunk of his car with a 22 calibre rifle waiting for the thief to return.

    Will 04:54

    No, yeah, see, I get taken into your own hands. You know, you know, call On the door, you say Excuse me, sir, my radio back. You don't hide in the boot of the car, two weekends in a row the gun and the two weekends in a row. I guess that's weird, but it's not the big problem here. The gun might the big problem is hiding in your car with a gun, I think is much worse crime.

    Rod 05:16

    I don't know. I mean, hiding with a gun. I don't think there's a statute for that.

    Will 05:20

    And it's your own car.

    Rod 05:21

    So you're allowed to do is not trespassing.

    Will 05:23

    I think the point is that he's intending to shoot someone

    Rod 05:26

    with a gun at them. So he waited for the thief for return. And it turns out they do radio again. Yeah. But they returned to bring the radio back or not. Yes, they want to reinstall the federal radio. They felt so rushed by Gilje.

    Will 05:39

    Could you get a better radio, please? And then I'll steal that

    Rod 05:42

    we came in to see if you had an amplifier in here as well. And then big speakers? Were talking on it with 60s.

    Will 05:48

    So not a good car radio era?

    Rod 05:50

    Well, no. So apparently he decided from that point, you know, you should solve your own problems.

    Will 05:56

    That's not a bad attitude to solve your own problems. It's yeah, I'm with him.

    Rod 06:00

    You shouldn't be. He's very good man. So he studied physics as I foreshadowed at the University of Adelaide and he got a PhD from on it's funny, I've got he's studied the University of Adelaide. He got his PhD from Flinders. So he got his PhD in 72. But he wasn't that into physics or science.

    Will 06:17

    Just wanted to do it just for fun.

    Rod 06:19

    You do shits and giggles I get it. That's what they call laser physics PhD,

    Will 06:23

    you accidentally did a bit of laser physics PhD just because

    Rod 06:26

    that's the degree everyone falls ass backwards into I don't think it is still. So he did the obvious thing. He went to the Northern Territory to became an Aboriginal land rights activist, and a park and wildlife Ranger.

    Will 06:37

    I do hope that they could use his laser physics knowledge somehow, like when they're fighting for land rights. It's like okay, if you fill up can you bring in some laser physics knowledge here and that will solve some of

    Rod 06:48

    Dr. Nitschke please. Well, Doctor Nitschke,

    Will 06:50

    but they were on friendly terms.

    Rod 06:52

    You can be friendly uncle, someone doctor. That's why always call your doctor. Because I don't want to seem disrespectful. So he badly injured his foot while rangering and so no more rangering. Okay, it's a moment. He liked it. So the obviously the next choice was to do a medical degree.

    Will 07:09

    Yes. Okay. Well obvious, because he's no, well, he started with the you've got to solve your own problems. And now he's got a medical problem. So rather than going to a hospital or to a doctor, he's gone. I will get a medical degrees and solve my own problems. Slowly, I will learn how to treat my foot. And

    Rod 07:25

    it's what I do in my cars, like the first car I got was broken for four years until I became a qualified mechanic

    Will 07:31

    Look, I have been I have been I have learned to fix a fair bit of city cars because of that, but you ruined it by getting a nice one. Yeah, yeah, that's what you do when you grow up. But .

    Rod 07:42

    I love that. So um, this choice is also you kind of picked this by accident. He was hoping in part that he could kill himself with his hypochondria, your broken foot is not hypochondria, no. But other things were so he's like, I'm a hypochondriac. Maybe by doing medicine. I'll science my way out of it by knowing things.

    Will 07:58

    I'm guessing the spoiler to that is no, that's not a good solution to hypochondria.

    Rod 08:01

    I don't know, that doesn't really go into that. I would say some sort of counselling

    Will 08:05

    or...

    Rod 08:06

    Yes you do that too. But well, it doesn't come up again. In anything I read. Okay. So he graduated Uni of Sydney medical school in 1989. He interned in at the Royal Darwin hospital, back and forth across the country. Yeah, it's quite a large country. He went back up him and he then went on to do some after hours GP work. Cool. So you know, he's been a good guy, he's doing the hard yards, no longer hiding in the beach shit, and people know. And he was in a, he stopped that a couple of months ago, at least. So he was also in a position where he was, you know, just trying to help. He actually does like helping people. So then the Northern Territory branch of the Australian Medical Association, put out a release publicly opposing a proposed law. Okay. And the law was to provide legal euthanasia or to allow people to legally

    Will 08:51

    have kids in Asia. Exactly. We'll take some take some kids from ages, or to leave them there, maybe to put euthanasia to legally assisted suicide

    Rod 09:00

    To legally assist peopleto pass on. So the AMA in that area said no, we're against it. Here's the AMA is against it. Yep. The AMA said no. And they put that out in public.

    Will 09:09

    And they're saying Philip, Dr. Nitschke,

    Rod 09:12

    Nitschke said, so he in a small group of dissenters, the other doctors, they published a contrary opinion in the NT news, which obviously we read a lot for the show. Under the banner, it was called doctors for change. So suddenly, he became the informal spokesman. It's going to catch on for the proposed legislation to allow legal euthanasia. He said this choice,

    Will 09:35

    it was just that suddenly there's more coming in. Yeah. And then the doctors association that he's part of, okay, we're against this and he's like, I'm not I'm not the we hear that against them.

    Rod 09:43

    That's poo. Okay. Yeah. He's suddenly sort of became the guy on the spot for this. It sounds like he didn't mean to, but he did. Then you're going to hear this apparently, one source as a young med school graduate Nitschke was drawn to the world of euthanasia, which is a strange way of putting it and the work of Jack Kevorkian the famous Emir I can euthanasia proponent and often invoked you know, what, are you some kind of Kevorkian? Because you're an evil bastard. I don't think he was, but I could be wrong. So finally, when the rights of the terminally ill act or ROTI came into force, July 1996, it finally came in. It made it in by one vote. So just nudged over. This is in northern Northern Territory, only territories and states have different rights under the federal law, so apparently, again, not my words inspired by Ken Hawkins death machine. And that sentence was longer I trimmed it,

    Will 10:34

    you can be inspired by a heroic struggle. By a heroic person but inspired by a death machine? Yeah, great centre. This isn't the machine I'm focused on. Yeah, that I want to be able to deal death, right.

    Rod 10:45

    Like this kills people. I mean, that's not what he said. So he made an updated version called the deliverance, which is basically a laptop and Joe's. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing too. If you haven't seen that movie, don't assume it's a laptop hooked up to an IV. So the computer you do some things, it confirms the patient's intent to die. You push a button, I think you push a few,

    Will 11:04

    you're going to press confirm three or four times something like that. And then you get a code sent to your phone. It's a 92nd factor authentication. Yes.

    Rod 11:12

    First country on the planet to do it. And only for this, it would trigger a lethal injection of barbiturates.

    Will 11:17

    Is that a good way to go?

    Rod 11:18

    I don't know. I don't think it's terrible. Okay. I really don't think it's terrible. barbiturates tranquillised You get sleepy and groggy and then you don't

    Will 11:27

    sleep a fair enough. What was what was Dr. Kevorkian death machine didn't have a laptop

    Rod 11:31

    I was I was a whole bunch of hammers connected to next to springs. And he Loy had pleasently on an anvil was there was a first one that was version one. You don't tell me that one next time. Automated,

    Will 11:48

    I imagine it's very, it's very Road Runner or something like that, you know, an anvil pops out, or it's a chainsaw machine, or it's where you

    Rod 11:55

    keep running and suddenly stop and look down and go. No more cliff. So he became in 96 the first doctor allegedly, I found it hard to believe, but a lot of sources say the first doctor in the world to administer illegal, lethal voluntary injection,

    Will 12:08

    the first in the world. That's what they say voluntary.

    Rod 12:11

    Voluntary.

    Will 12:12

    Let's let's envelope. Let's catch that in terms of within a legal regime. I don't doubt there have been well, a there have been doctors that have administered lethal doses. Definitely. And there's probably been some that have definitely, probably definitely, that have done it with voluntary consent of the patients. Hey, Doc, can you do something? Yeah, and Doc does, but not in a legal sense. Like, no, Doc is just like, check. No one's around our oops. They're over morphine, over morphine. But okay, so he's first and he's first to do it and be publicly able to say, I did that. Wow.

    Rod 12:46

    This was in the New York Times I mean, this this obviously carried the story carried. So in the New York Times I mentioned this but many others as well. He was at the home of the man was a Sunday, apparently, man whose wife was there Sunday as a data guy there it is. It's, you don't want it you don't wanna miss out on a Saturday night? And

    Will 13:02

    oh, yeah, who's gonna do it on a Monday? Like, you got to work for a bit first and then you come home and press the button? No, it's Sunday is

    Rod 13:09

    awesome. Mondays are really shitty. You like art Monday mas die, then like it's just not awesome. So he was he was in his late 60s, he was apparently in pain. He had advanced prostate cancer and you know, things went in his favour. And as to say his wife was there to or cool. The man met the conditions of the law that required at the time two doctors and a psychiatrist evaluate the terminally ill person. Okay, fair enough, mandates a nine day waiting period before you can do the thing. So apparently also, in the build up people were being grouchy about this. So the man had written a letter and it was released, I believe, posthumously defending his own right to end his life. He criticised the church group, but in particular church groups and others he wanted to overturn the law. And he said, Look, the church and the law should be separate. If you disagree with voluntary euthanasia, don't use it

    Will 13:54

    don't do it. Yeah, do it. Look that is there is a very good argument for a lot things.

    Rod 13:59

    A lot of things a lot of things if you don't want gay marriage don't get gay marriage.

    Will 14:03

    Totally. No, I it's a good good argument for a lot of things may not apply to everything though.

    Rod 14:09

    You mean like this?

    Will 14:11

    Well, not necessarily the I might come to some opinions later on this I might let's let the most of you don't have one or two already. But there are some things that maybe affect others.

    Rod 14:21

    There are Nitschke the end assisted for people to move on using the deliverance machine then the federal government repealed the bill the next year 90 So it was in for a year and I don't know if it even made it a whole year again in for for for for people to do it all from the Northern Territory I believe so because it was only in the Northern Territory. But then the feds came over the top and said No.

    Will 14:42

    Point for our international listeners or our non followers of constitutional law here in Australia that there's maybe one or two territories can't make all their own laws. We don't have the same rights as states we in the Australian Capital Territory. Second Class fucking citizens. Yes, we are. You know, we can we can make a little bit The federal government can say no that's not really law not good enough try harder come back next year an A for effort B for follow through and a D sorry a fail for delivery

    Rod 15:11

    or for actually enacting. We don't like it so this didn't stop for Nitschke though. He said look, any legal euthanasia did not stop people coming to him saying they wanted to die. So people had a name now he's gonna wrap this guy knows what to look for. I want to be number five, I want to be number five. This is the same he he found an organisation called Exit International. It had a original name first, but it doesn't really matter. Exit internationals house well known, and it's to quote, talk about end of life choices, information and advocacy. It's a nonprofit, it advocates for legitimate and legal euthanasia. So it has public support, it has online support is up to around 30,000 around the globe. I'm glad it's a nonprofit, it is and I'm very, very glad if it wasn't you can imagine America, we're against it, why not? Because it's not privatised,

    Will 15:55

    or flipping around that it's a some for profit organisation that is trying to encourage people to go through euthanasia Have you thought about dying? might just be a little bit of conflict of interest

    Rod 16:06

    For me, 97% of your inheritance will take care of it will have a small amount of staff, but they mostly have volunteers and stuff. And that income is mostly memberships, requests and donations in general, the average exit member is 75.

    Will 16:23

    I believe that I believe that because Well, it ain't no surprise here that you can have opinions on right to die at any stage in your life. But I'm not getting much pointier. As you approach that moment,

    Rod 16:37

    the majority of the members are actually well, they're not sick. They're just people over 75 on average. So as a quote from Nitschke, at exit, we believe that it is a fundamental human right for every adult of sound mind to be able to plan for the end of their life in a way that is reliable, peaceful, and at a time of their choosing. Um, he also published a book called The peaceful Pill Handbook. So first edition, and there have been many early 2000s Here, it instructs people on the most painless and efficient ways to end things as continuously updated. He was twice nominated for Australian of the Year because of this kind of work nominated, remarkably, didn't win. Wow. Yeah. Okay, keeps Australia small is good for the environment. So a couple of years ago, he wrote a piece in the Huffington Post, so just sort of as a Guest writer, and he was reflecting how not long after exit started, he had this experience that expanded his idea about approaches to end of life and who should be allowed to approach it. So he said at the time, I approached it with confidence, and even the arrogance of someone in the middle of his life. I was about to turn 50

    Will 17:41

    Yeah, it's never coming for me. Exactly. I'm happy to help but never come in for

    Rod 17:45

    whatever people. He said at a psychological level death was still something that happens to others and being of a similar age. I agree. Then he said as the work in his in his field has matured, his vision has shifted from supporting the idea of a dignified death for the terminally ill, or what he calls a medical model to supporting the concept of a good death for any rational adult who has life experience. The human rights model equals

    Will 18:08

    life experience. Is that a euphemism for having had sex? Yeah, it feels like it feels reversion that you can't sorry virgins. But you've got

    Rod 18:17

    we have attached next to exit international headquarters a large brothel. Moderate rates,

    Will 18:21

    there's seven things you've got to you've got to have. On your own shirts, climb a small mountain and

    Rod 18:26

    eaten alive dog?

    Will 18:28

    I was going to say cook your own dinner, eat alive? Sure. You've got to do that. Yes, rattle a crocodile and get a root. And then you're allowed to,

    Rod 18:35

    then you'll have to make a decision for them. Actually, they said they interpret that to mean anyone over 50 Oh, you haven't had any experience yet? Apparently.

    Will 18:42

    So hang on, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Go back. So let's go through those conditions again. You're gonna be sound mind. Yep. terminal condition.

    Rod 18:49

    Yep. via his shifting from that. That's thing It started off terminal. And now he's gone. Actually. Maybe anyone that once maybe anyone that wants.

    Will 18:59

    Man, this is tricky. But But But why? Why anyone that wants, but not anyone that wants that's 48. Like if

    Rod 19:06

    Because they're idiots. Everyone knows that if you're 50 you're an idiot. Let's put a boundary other than you. And me being only 35

    Will 19:13

    Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. It might be frickin hard to draw boundaries on this kind of thing. And I'm not saying we can't read. It is hard.

    Rod 19:21

    No, it's cut and dry. The approach is quantitative. Yeah, exactly. Just pick number. Use numbers.

    Will 19:26

    It's the thing that's on most trivial pursuit cards. What should be the boundaries in which we allow people to help other people to die and everyone knows 50.

    Rod 19:33

    But then he had a change of heart and this is interesting. So in 1999, he met a 76 year old woman called Lisette Nigot. Nigot, I'm not sure French. She led what she describes as three lives first in France, where she was born, then the United States and then finally in Australia. So after World War Two, she was the promotions manager of the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York, which is a very fancy place. And there she met the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Charles de Gaulle. Marilyn Monroe, Salvador Dali, lots of famous people hobnobbed, or at least certain famous people of the 20th century. Exactly. She became an academic, I'm not quite sure when and move to Australia in 1967. So that was the third phase. She spent a long time at the Department of French studies at the uni of WA, Western Australia. So that's where she comes in.

    Will 20:20

    Is this, is this all counting enough as life experience? Meeting, I think it is meeting some Dukes, Salvador Dali, and Charles de Gaulle. And then being an academic in Western Australia. That is probably the most important problem that will probably take a lot. That is your take a lot. Being in the French studies department in the University of Western Australia

    Rod 20:38

    She was awarded the highest French academic award in 1995. She got that she'd been retired for eight years. So 99 This is when men need to get started talking with her. So by the time she was 79, a couple of years after Philip had met her. She was not sick or in pain, but she said quite simply, she didn't want to live to it. She just done so she apparently repeatedly approached Nitschke asking for information about suicide drugs. So he said, I always said to her that's ridiculous. You're not sick, go on a world cruise or write a book or something and do something different. Come on, mix it up a bit. Take out another counselling. Yay. Well, he knows that there might be I'm bored

    Will 21:18

    there might be many paths out of your slump

    Rod 21:20

    true and suicidal one day she said he mind your own business. I make this decision you run around imposing your template on other people of what a life worth living is and doled out your information only to those people you think meet your criteria. You are the worst example of insufferable medical paternalism I've ever met.

    Will 21:38

    Well, that is really good.

    Rod 21:39

    She really held back

    Will 21:41

    the worst example of insufferable medical paternalism. That is great because Because clearly she's saying I have quite a few examples. Yeah, insufferable medical paternal. You're the worst one. But I can imagine she is reading this as a hypocrisy. She's saying it'll be dude. Dude, you're saying one thing but your boundaries. Don't love them kind of what you were saying. I think you and her may be kindred I might be coming from the other side though.

    Rod 22:05

    He said I immediately crumbled, fell apart and agreed with it really affected me. So this was his life changing? Wait a minute, why just determine the hill? Why should it just be them? Why can't we all have a crack? I paraphrase Fair, fair. And he said, Look, she was one of a growing number of Healthy People who were seeking out such support. She had a final statement. They call it a suicide note. But I don't know if suicides quite the right way to put this. I feel like it's too generic and it has a very strong negative implication.

    Will 22:31

    Let's sidebar that one. Yeah, because that's a really important point in this conversation really come back to that.

    Rod 22:36

    So she wrote in this statement, a number of things, but one was, why is there pressure against helping or allowing people who have had enough of living to fulfil their longing for final peace?

    Will 22:46

    So why did she need help?

    Rod 22:48

    Because she wanted to do it nicely calmly and non aesthetically ugly. Aesthetics comes up a lot.

    Will 22:54

    I want to keep a nice looking corpse you'll be fine. Are you an open casket or a closed casket guy?

    Rod 23:00

    for me or for others?

    Will 23:02

    Well, tell me how is it different what yours is closed other people open? You want to see the face?

    Rod 23:06

    I don't care. I think me being open to be funnier. Because I don't have to suffer through it. But no, I don't want to I don't want to want to but I'm a product of death happens over there culture.

    Will 23:15

    Are you allowed to have an open casket but get your what are they the mortician to dress your face like in a disguise? Like, like you have your normal face up until you die? Yeah, but then you get like frickin awesome handlebar moustache. So everyone's looking at it. Like why not change? Just you know, just put a bit of ambiguity about whether you're dead or not.

    Rod 23:39

    I'm not going to stop you. You let me know leave me instructions and I will. I will decorate you person. Fair enough. But she said yeah, what why is this why should we be allowed to she says after 80 years of a good life what she wrote I've had enough. I want to stop before it gets bad. She described in that note also that Nitschke was her inspiration. She thanked him for his support despite his insufferable paternalism. Well he got over it because of her he got over it because of her. Yeah. And she described him as a crusader working for a worthwhile human cause so as we know we know very well as Crusaders. Yes, particularly for controversial causes. You got to use multiple communication styles and channels

    Will 24:15

    Do you yes, no that I'll say that now. Yes, I agree. Do you do in the Crusades? That's what they're often famed. They said

    Rod 24:21

    don't just kill people or if you do use different weapons and

    Will 24:24

    Put some PR out as well. Do something nice. For the people of the Holy Land, maybe open up a little school or something like that. Bring some lollies when you're when you're crusading. I think that's what they did. Like the Knights the Knights Templar had a whole bunch of lollies here for a sweetie inside inside the kit bag. Yeah, hand them out to little kids. That's why the First Crusade was all right. And then after the second one, they ran out of candy didn't didn't that's what they say. Also, the hammer machine was probably also explained why they had the Children's Crusade later. That's where this paedophile led a whole bunch of children into his castle, and they were never seen off again.

    Rod 24:59

    We're talking about suicide I know it's fine. Now now. Now I feel sad. So different communication styles are love the croute And so, Jesus Christ. So Indonesia, the PR guy.

    Will 25:12

    Well, I guess that's what you got ahead.

    Rod 25:13

    You do. And back to The Economist again, it is undeniable that Nitschke's campaigns have exhibited a certain PR savvy possess. So he's the originator of the euthanasia flash mob whites. You know, the one what, I don't know what that looks like, but I'm guessing gruesome it took place on his 70th birthday. And it was also the 20th anniversary.

    Will 25:32

    What is this? We all come to a train station and press a button together. I don't know. Or we don't come and we spell out the word euthanasia with our bodies.

    Rod 25:41

    The data like well, what does that spill I tried to tell standing angle do we have to be odd? But it went to the soundtrack of Bon Jovi's It's my life. So that's pretty good. It's a good song, but it says, I don't want to live forever. I mean, it's really written for him. That's only one thing that let's now talk about Nitschke, the comedian. Did he really, he really, really funny things what I've heard really, really tap it out. So I was wandering around through the story and there's much to the story. What you're hearing is 7.3% So I found a review in the Sydney Morning Herald in 2016 of a Melbourne Comedy Festival show. It starts like this, it built ahead of controversial steam. So how did dicing with death, the comedy festival show about euthanasia by troublemaking, campaigner Philip Nitschke, turn out?

    Will 26:29

    I'm surprised that he chose some death related material is weird. You could have some other material like not some plane flights and stuff.

    Rod 26:35

    No, not some, the whole show.

    Will 26:37

    Of course, it is like he's got one schtick.

    Rod 26:40

    He really does. And he's like, milking it. So it turns out a lot of this is quotes from the reviewer. So it turned out not to be the some macabre exercise in bad taste. But a sobering, enlightening, surprisingly sedate affair, which would be helped by the fact that we're police in attendance is a

    Will 26:57

    Sobering enlightening, surprisingly, sedate is not always the review that you want comedy when you're at a comedy festival. I think it's a special one came out feeling less drunk. Yeah, I mean, in lightnings not bad, but

    Rod 27:11

    but it's not what I don't go to comedy and go, Why don't I feel smarter? So the police there in case he put a foot wrong.

    Will 27:18

    In case he suicided someone will say, Hey, have you thought of doing it this way? Calling for volunteers.

    Rod 27:24

    Can we go we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to that. You look old and bored. And so you look over 50 and bored. What do you reckon? Step on up. But there was no writing. There were no walkouts, there was no vicious heckling, there were no arrests or protests. Nobody stormed the stage. There's no nothing overzealous of police. Yeah. Well, they didn't do nothing. They didn't do nothing. The review goes on, and it was funny. All right, culturally funny. So he opened with some gags about trouble at the airport because he was trying to get his props through. Okay, and the one that caused the biggest amount of trouble was a grim reaper scythe. So why can't I bring this giant axe knife thing through? The review says he moves smoothly from joke to anecdote he put everyone in the picture of the show was often funny, occasionally touching always in danger of going south. But it never went south. There was no exploitation of the vulnerable. No patronising of the terminally ill no pandering to heightened emotions. And he didn't. He basically didn't bag out his enemies or the people who were against him. And again, according to review, he presented the case was such measured warm human intelligence that even his pawns were excusable. Apparently he's a monster, but his central message was not so much about suicide but empowerment and he always returned this message of empowerment like it, you should be able to choose

    Will 28:37

    because as a PR guy, you got to sell the positive you do no one really wants to take death as the positive no empowerment is a positive.

    Rod 28:44

    Well, they go on to say was a fairly partisan crowd 450 ish, mostly elderly, many on crutches and in wheelchairs. But they're extremely excited about what he was saying and how he was saying it. So let it go on to say the early notice from the police press about the police presence did do the show a as they put it a dancing on eggshells vibe, and each had to cover himself legally. So he'd spoken to them about lions he must observe and be careful about you know what it's like that, you know, in the media, you can't you can say someone has died, but you can't talk about methods, etc. So I assume it's all like that. Okay. And we get to the climax of the show,

    Will 29:16

    even though he's putting out a book about methods. Yeah.

    Rod 29:19

    So the climax of the show, according to the reviewer was not the brief demonstration of Nitschke's Destiny device using Derryn Hinch so for those of you who don't know who are under 1000 or don't live here Derryn Hinch was a loudmouth current affairs in inverted commas shock shock jock on television, then of senator for the WHO THE FUCK What are you talking about party?

    Will 29:42

    Not Not? Not great, weird sort of politics not always as right wing as some shock jocks

    Rod 29:47

    Not not all terrible, not Altero so I had Derryn Hinch, come up and press the button and people could watch him die simulated death on this the Destiny device.

    Will 29:57

    I don't know if that's helping you cool does it It's great. Let's come and pretend about this super serious bit. I know

    Rod 30:05

    You're not renowned for his acting either. So I guess it was either really understated or wildly overstated. Yeah, okay. But they said, the reviewer said look, the real climax was the the reading of the shows disclaimer slash affirmation where everyone had to stand up hand in the end swear. Allow, I acknowledge that none of the information provided in this show will be used in any way to advertise counsel, assist in the act of suicide either my own or that of any other person. Alternatively, if I do suicide, I will not in any way link this to dicing with Dr. Death. Yeah, indeed, like stood up and pledged. And apparently, according to the review, and many were giggling while they did it, like my

    Will 30:43

    god, though, like like to say, if I do later on this has nothing to do with

    Rod 30:48

    remember, including a very poignant last message to the physical plane. It wasn't

    Will 30:53

    It's not his fault. It's a little bit don't think of the elephant to put in your suicide note. It wasn't this guy. You know,

    Rod 31:01

    I didn't think it was but now, like off wet dream for luck.

    Will 31:05

    It's just ridiculous. Calm down. I mean, clearly, if you're putting him in the will, it's that guy

    Rod 31:10

    who serves in the world system. Know what he says. I'm not leaving anything. I'm just so apparently, they're giggling many of they took it and the guy went on the review and under say, look, the whiff of farce that had suddenly filled the venue was lost on nobody.

    Will 31:24

    But of course, I mean, this is this would be the emotional orientation of everyone in the room. They're like, this is farcical that supposedly, we are allowed to, you know, we have freedoms and rights and individual liberties. And yet we are not allowed to do this.

    Rod 31:39

    The ultimate control

    Will 31:40

    and we can't help someone else do it.

    Rod 31:42

    It's tricky. Anyway, got three and a half stars.

    Will 31:48

    I just yeah, that's

    Rod 31:50

    for those of you who are watching the video yet. A little bit of beer came out of William's nose

    Will 31:54

    how do you review something that is a little bit different to everything else? Like,

    Rod 32:00

    With great prejudice. So back to the Sirius device, like

    Will 32:03

    the star system doesn't work like that. What are you saying? I mean, here's here's why do you hate your regular comedy special? Here's why do you have any special and here's a suicide advocate making a few jokes and showing you the death machine. It's not the same.

    Rod 32:15

    To be fair, you got to watch Derryn Hinch sort of die and a lot of people would have been happy

    Will 32:19

    Oh, even five if if he actually did like if someone lives you know,

    Rod 32:23

    I don't know. I don't think he wouldn't be the only give it five then you're watching guys like

    Will 32:27

    Who was the famous famous punk guy in New York in the mid late 70s. He supposedly had always promised his fans that he would die on stage. And they did, eventually very punk. And it was it was intensely punk the way that he did and choked on his own pool. I don't know, it was some version of that. Yeah, but he his shows were supposedly catastrophically horrific, all the way leading up to that I was like, this is where it's gonna end up. I said, I'm gonna I'm gonna either kill myself or die on stage. And it's like, I don't want to be there.

    Rod 32:59

    I don't. I don't want to be there either. Three stars.

    Will 33:05

    Music was good for a while,

    Rod 33:07

    but then it got a bit dramatic. I didn't feel it. I didn't believe it. There was too much for me.

    Will 33:11

    So you don't want to give that five? You don't want to give that one? A little one star show?

    Rod 33:15

    No, because he died. That's commitment. And I see

    Will 33:17

    Eddie Van Halen. Eddie Van Halen is on stage. Is that a one star or five star? What was he wearing? What song was playing guitar solo so much that he exploded five stars. It's nine stars.

    Rod 33:29

    Dude, I miss you. But damn, I was here. So the series businesses briefly so of course, away from all the PR devices and advices. So he could only briefly help people with the medical stuff because became illegal really quickly. So of course, he did advise people and continues to advise people. And so we'll get to that after this upbeat message like a palate cleanser, really. Previous machines

    Will 33:54

    have Iraqi gun gone.

    Rod 33:56

    Not that far. Okay? Just a bit of an idea. Granted context because I'm building to the threads I'm connecting.

    Will 34:03

    You said previous machines, I was like, if there's gonna be Nitschke, it's good doctor down and we're gonna go, we're gonna start with a lever. I was gonna get one of the Romans have what was the Roman assists? That's a lever machine wheels. Yeah, we boil some lead. And what you do is you put yourself in bed, and then you put the cauldron of lead above the bed and then you just sort of tip it on yourself. That's where I was going to start first boil some lead. Or the French revolution where you could you could loan out the guillotine. You know, on weekends,

    Rod 34:31

    But they put the neck bit far enough away from the hand pull bit that you can't reach. You need to help. Did they do that? Yeah. If anyone's going to know if anyone's gonna know. So we've already heard about the deliverance machine, the computer one that gave you the barbiturates. But of course, there are prescription drug Nitschke went on to do a number of things. One was telling people that they should get their own drugs, but they should test them. That's just so they can be in control. And you can get them from certain nefarious countries, or nonferrous countries countries that need them. money. So he, he basically made a barbiturate testing kit for people

    Will 35:06

    where you have a little bit see if you like the taste. Now it gets a little bit if it takes him salt and you feel 10% Dead umami, get more, you probably need 10 times

    Rod 35:15

    MSG. Let's go back to last episode I need the MSG now. So he had a kit and he was going to hear initially launched in the UK and then Australia. So of course it was made, particularly because people were getting Nembutal which is a barbiturate, especially by Mexico delivered by the post unlabeled. And they weren't sure if they had the right concentration, if it was actually Nembutal, et cetera. So now let things go terribly sideways.

    Will 35:40

    You've just got as wasn't it 90% of the cocaine around here is just sugar. Yeah. CBOs Yeah, can't die by a placebo. I think that's the problem.

    Rod 35:47

    That's a no see. But here's the kills rootedness unless you want it to there's a point.

    Will 35:52

    That's the point. Here's his 800 packets of placebos. See what happens when you take all of them you choke on? I feel a bit, it's a bit sweet.

    Rod 35:59

    So when he brought it to the UK, he was detained at Heathrow Airport just for the kit. Just the testing kit, no actual barbiturates. He was detained. And he's clearly in charge. Of course, of course he is, since he was 18 and tried to shoot radio thieves. Same thing happened in Auckland in New Zealand, because he was there to launch get in trouble course. And they went no, wait a minute, that's bad. He also offered some advice on a different kind of pentobarbital. Because if you get the liquid form, I think it was a liquid form, on liquid form degrades really quickly. Whereas if you get the pill version, it will last a long time, and you get it on the shelf until you're ready until you're ready.

    Will 36:34

    Yeah, exactly what you want to know the time is right.

    Rod 36:37

    And his language was and this is his attitude was it was consistent with offering good medical care if people are going to do it, then I'm going to help them do it the best way

    Will 36:44

    Of course, of course, make sure it is, you know, in fairness, make it as safe as it can cause things can go catastrophic in the ways Yeah, not intended. .

    Rod 36:53

    Look yes, it really is. Yeah, it really got, Absolutely. And so he literally I mean, you know, being facetious aside, he was actually trying to acknowledging that people are going to do it. Let's do it in a good way. Yeah, let's make it beautiful. He also made the exit bag and CoGen, which is short for CoGen, I don't know why. So the exit bag is a large plastic bag with a drawstring allowing it to be secured around the neck. Oh, no, the CoGengenerates carbon monoxide gas. Okay, Newsweek described it as a bizarro breathing mask with carbon monoxide replacing oxygen. Oh, Jesus. So initially said actually, this is a very effective, but it's not appealing because it's gross and scary. but quite literally. And on the whole, the effect of it is apparently not too horrifying. But it was more people don't want to be found that way.

    Will 37:20

    Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you know, you know, in this whole thing, and I don't, I don't know if you're gonna cover this or not. But it does say that there is legitimate and important grounds for a complicated interdisciplinary research project on the best ways to do it. You know, in the sense, you need to know, okay, what are all the constraints, you want to leave an aesthetically beautiful corpse? You want to be found? In a way that's okay. But also you want to slide out in a way that is pretty peaceful. You don't want to go into convulsions. You wanted to be cheap and affordable, you want to be effective, all of those kinds of things. Absolutely. And I don't know if he's one person. That sounds like just a man. It sounds like there needs to be a pretty large research project.

    Rod 38:22

    Are you pitching? Does the ARC listen to this?

    Will 38:24

    It's not that's not my bag, team members

    Rod 38:27

    The Australian Research Council funding body. Um, so if this was basically gross, it needed an upgrade. So he got to the Destiny device, which was in his Melbourne show. That didn't kill Derryn Hinch. And he was saying, look, it's really good because it uses nitrogen. And nitrogen basically is not detectable in an autopsy, which is can be important to people. You can buy it from your local hardware store, in theory, at least a small amount. Now.

    Will 38:51

    Here's my boundaries.

    Rod 38:51

    You can get it from Bunnings don't

    Will 38:52

    no, no, not that. I don't want anything that's not detectable. I think there should be clear markers of this. If it is done. It shouldn't be. You got to be clear in on the ticket. You know, this is why I'm confirming confirming multiple times Okay, and to say I died because of this. It should be a clear marker.

    Rod 39:09

    We're not everyone agrees with you.

    Will 39:11

    They're wrong.

    Rod 39:12

    All those wrong people disagree. I've said that bit those terrible humans. Because he, as he puts it about nitrogen it it squeezes oxygen out of the body, causing a hypoxic death and it's the best as in most not unpleasant.

    Will 39:26

    Which version of nitrogen is is like laughing gas?

    Rod 39:28

    Just straight up nitrogen I believe. He said, Look, it's extremely quick. There are no drugs. It never fails. It's reliable, peaceful and available. So that's not bad.

    Will 39:38

    Isn't the air 90% Nitrogen anyway?

    Rod 39:40

    Yeah, but it's when you add 109% But when you add it up 240% That's when the problem gets left fall. Okay. So of course, the idea of using nitrogen which is kind of readily available, kind of some people were not happy with this hard to believe I know. So there's a Christian group wanting him to stop being allowed to practice Medicine and they were complained to the AMA Australian Medical Association. The AMA themselves expressed outrage but apparently his claims about doing this was the first time the AMA actually got on record to talk about euthanasia and voluntary euthanasia at all. So he's here before now, so he prompted the conversation Yeah, okay, we head towards the next part of the thread from the beginning. He needed legitimate access to more than just a couple of bottles of nitrogen and he wanted to supply people who wanted it to so that's where the brewing company comes

    Will 40:29

    in. Oh my god is that is because that was I was sitting here thinking I know that you like beer that has nitrogen in it. I

    Rod 40:35

    I really do. It's very smooth. He started in 2013 Max dog brewing

    Will 40:40

    Maxdog Max dog that is look Fuck yeah. Such a masculinity issues name for a book, but it

    Rod 40:50

    all got no issues with it

    Will 40:52

    all craft beer is approaching masculinity issues now.

    Rod 40:56

    It's literally a huge dick being used. Okay, what do we do?

    Will 40:59

    How can we find closer to the pyramid of masculinity issues Max dog pretty close to the top

    Rod 41:04

    Becuase ginormous penis was gone.

    Will 41:08

    Guys, you're fucking idiots. I know where it is. That exists.

    Rod 41:11

    But we're doing it deliberately. Not in real life. We're much more sedate. So they started the company in 2013 based in Adelaide Max dog. It sent shipments to the UK and New Zealand as well as here.

    Will 41:22

    Did they do any beer or just shipments?

    Rod 41:24

    We're gonna get to that. So the carefully worded website says quote, do you like your homebrew bubbles small, which nitrogen dusts delicious? Or have you one of the 100 other uses for homemade nitrogen? So of course, I went to the website and many other uses. That's the homepage first. Right?

    Will 41:41

    Enjoy nitro IPA. That looks nice.

    Rod 41:42

    They look. Left is Nitschke say looks happy on the right. And the guy in the middle looks like maybe he's a client doesn't like it.

    Will 41:50

    They fast his face out. It was it was an ambiguous fuzzing. He's just like, Yeah, he does. So so there

    Rod 41:56

    it says Enjoy nitro IPA. So I clicked on that. Yeah, there are two things that come up.

    Will 42:01

    Do you accidentally get a suicide beer if you click the wrong thing?

    Rod 42:04

    Yeah, I wasn't well, yes, they are dangerous. If you can see the notes in small writing. Those are the only two things they sell. And they're regulators for controlling the flow of gases, nitrogen gases, okay. This is at the moment as of yesterday. I'd say

    Will 42:17

    So they don't have a new beer.

    Rod 42:18

    They don't have any beer.

    Will 42:20

    Why not capitalise a little bit on that? Because he's not in it for the money, man. Yeah, but she couldn't be in it for the publicity. He's clearly in it for that.

    Rod 42:27

    I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't think I've ever made beer. I may be wrong, but I don't think I've ever made beer.

    Will 42:32

    Look, one day of course of beer company will sponsor us but in the meantime, not MAXDOP Akasha projects. Delicious, delicious beers. Love your work. We love your work. Will's gonna be one right now if you were wanting to also sell nitrogen on the side, it would be a funny thing to do. That would

    Rod 42:49

    2015 was shuffled forward. The South Australian chapter of the AMA suspended Nitschke because medical licence so he publicly burned to the licence in front of reporters while he made his defied assertions about how he'd continue to call himself a doctor championing the cause etc.

    Will 43:04

    Well, he's got a PhD in laser physics

    Rod 43:05

    he really fucking say he can that's everyone's fallback job there's you're out there's you're gonna do can technically continue to call myself a doctor laser because they're gonna laser physics. Laser. I'm not technically that's the real doctor. I know. I know. That still Everyone knows that. So they offered to reinstate him providing he fulfil, depending on the source, either 25 or 26 criteria. Okay, just a couple, just a couple, just to flavour it for it. He could not talk about euthanasia

    Will 43:30

    seems to be like the thing he wants to do, though.

    Rod 43:32

    Yeah, it does. And but you can see why they put that up front.

    Will 43:34

    Is this the big one? So do you want to do this? Or do you want to do that? Don't even worry about the other? Why bother about any of the others? Like just just this is the thing? Are you going to be a doctor or a euthanasia or not? And I get that Philip Nitschke is saying I think a doctor could be it can be both euthanasia advocate. They don't think that. Not at all. I didn't dive into all the others. No more skateboarding in the hallways.

    Rod 43:58

    Yes. Cut your hair son. Not giving advice or information about the suicide drug Nembutal?

    Will 44:03

    Yeah, same diff like that's that's just more of the same.

    Rod 44:05

    Making a commitment not to sell or provide purity testing kits for the drug purity testing. the ones exactly. You may also have urgent

    Will 44:12

    Yes, yeah. Because because you're not you haven't had life experienc

    Rod 44:15

    Exactly. Therefore no death. You don't get death until you had life experience.

    Will 44:19

    So alongside Max dog brewing, there's also Max Hyman test, or I don't know what it is.

    Rod 44:25

    You haven't seen that divergent testing. That's it's quite a subtle test, he would have to remove his name from the co authored peaceful pill handbook. He would also have to refer any patient who intended to suicide to a mental health professional, regardless of whether they presented signs of mental illness or not. That was some of them.

    Will 44:42

    Let me guess. He said, No,

    Rod 44:43

    I don't think he said no, but he did do the smart thing. Do the smart thing. He and his partner moved to the Netherlands on an entrepreneurial visa. What can you do in the Netherlands? What's he gonna do? This brings me to the next bit of the thread the trade fair. Oh, yeah, the trade fair. So from a 2018 Guardian article 1000s of visitors flocked to the annual Amsterdam funeral fair at the city's famous investor cook where all the latest trends in death funeral fare

    Will 45:12

    funeral fare some I know that every industry has a conference.

    Rod 45:15

    Yes they do.

    Will 45:16

    But what is changing about death like oh, we're gonna get latest things in coffee okay we long time ago we did talk about the mushroom compost stuff different ways to compost your body or bury your body

    Rod 45:28

    very safe in a bag under a tree. So I had this Westerkerk trade fair it was annual they display things like biodegradable coffins the latest in Hot Rod funeral versus Hot Rod funeral her fucking like the Addams Family or the monsters or whatever you know. That's a drive. What was the Sarco? S a r c o that drew large crowds. Soccer was short for not sure for sarcophagus.

    Will 45:56

    sarcophagus?

    Rod 45:59

    What do you think? People still have?

    Will 46:01

    You know, you get laughed at? Unfortunately. No, you know, you have you have your funeral. Yeah. And do I want a sarcophagus and people are like, man, that guy's an idiot.

    Rod 46:09

    No, I want to convert in my likeness. I want a statue of me in my 20s .

    Will 46:13

    Alabasta I want it right in the middle of town. I want tripping over my enormous sarcophagus.

    Rod 46:19

    Yep, in the way in the middle nine times life size. I agree. Standing up, staring at people you're standing up. You don't want to be slowly rotating. So no one avoids my gaze.

    Will 46:28

    I wanted to be leaning over a little bit. So no standing straight. So it's a bit scary.

    Rod 46:33

    Maybe it's gonna form threatening a little bit. So in two or 3000 years, it'll start to get away. Yeah, I do like that. Okay, you win Boston. So the Sarco was a new and honestly, it was super fancy sci fi looking machine. Yeah, for the party. And it requires no medical substances. No equipment that is not legal.

    Will 46:54

    Okay. Yes, sure. Yep. No medical substances, I liked the idea of the medical substances that would make it smoother. Because I can imagine, there are plenty of plenty of non medical substances by which you can achieve this journey.

    Rod 47:08

    So to be fair, at the show, there wasn't actually a real Sarco pod. But there was a model of it. And VR glasses, which gave visitors and this is a quote, a true to life experience of what it would be like to sit in the pod before ultimately pressing the button. I don't mind knowing that though. I don't believe it's true to life. Because if it was true to life, you wouldn't just see it. You'd feel it. Did you carry admits that one of the biggest reasons for doing this was aesthetic? Because it removes the yuck factor of the plastic bag over the head, etc. Yeah, you said as efficient is that is when he would do workshops. And he says a lot of workshops. You can tell people over and over and over as I do in my workshops that it's cheap, reliable, quick and legal to work a bag over your head and pump the gas in.

    Will 47:50

    Yes, it is. Okay, cool.

    Rod 47:53

    And look, it is a peaceful death, he said but they don't like the look of it. And they don't want to be found that way. And I get that you imagine being found with a bag over your head and a canister like not great. Not great. So this is an aesthetic decision, at least in part. So on aesthetics, as he puts it my original design looked more like a bathtub. Not a fancy one not a clawfoot you know that just ugly bathtub. So he teamed up with a Harlem Dutch based Holland as in yet the Netherlands. tulips were exactly where the tulips were exactly. So many callbacks. So he got he gets this Dutch designer called Alexander Bannink who apparently really pushed the idea of making it resemble a vehicle to give the sense of going somewhere no it does not have wheels I know you're thinking right now is that a chopper is it like yeah,

    Will 48:37

    let's face buggy Yeah, just to the afterlife buggy

    Rod 48:40

    I don't think this is well described. I think this is a bad description but I just read it in the interest of being a true to sources. The Economist article goes further. Sarco is positively Instagrammable Yes, I will show you pictures. Wow, I

    Will 48:52

    guess he put up your final pictures. Fair enough. Yeah, is me in the pod? And that's me pressing the button.

    Rod 48:58

    It's a slight convenience that wouldn't look out of place in a Tesla showroom garden. The second at least reference to Tesla It consists of a detachable capsule a coffin essentially mounted on diagonal stand and it's transportable so you can take it to the Rockies a field of flowers whatever they want. It's big in its bathtub size. These are mock ups.

    Will 49:18

    Okay. Okay, that does look future now that looks like an escape pod from Space Station super sci fi right super sci fi to the point where they haven't made any of these as they

    Rod 49:29

    We'll get to that alright looks not so cynical in one so under 54 not allowed to die

    Will 49:36

    It looks very very much like you are about to God to the great beyond I guess

    Rod 49:41

    it's very soft. It's very Star Trek. I feel like it's very that's how Picard would go. So the mockups you've seen here's how it works. Are you ready? This is not advice on how to suicide you need to Sarco. So potential users fill out an online test to gauge their mental fitness. I feel like I feel there's more to it than that.

    Will 49:58

    You've see I've got a good array Your experience as well. Star experience decides,

    Rod 50:03

    are you ever 18? Yes, I am, sir. Please send me it's in both

    Will 50:07

    it's impossible for a 16 year old visiting an alcohol site on the internet to lie about that.

    Rod 50:12

    It is it is. That's why it works. If they pass that I think there's more to it. This is a brief description if they pass they get a code that works for 24 hours two factor authentic? Absolutely. Maybe three, you have to have two phones. After the code is entered, you get an additional confirmation. So you've got to be like I do you mean it derailleur it's fucking Microsoft I want a lot of confirmations. How many though?

    Will 50:34

    Were you writing a letter? Do you want John help writing a letter? I want to I in this kind of thing I just want I just I mean I know I'm coming into the machine

    Rod 50:42

    how many if you got to the point we're going you know what?

    Will 50:44

    enough to almost annoy me. Not quite there.

    Rod 50:47

    You want to be annoyed at the time?

    Will 50:49

    No, I want to I want to relax into this. I don't want it to nurse me through these notifications like we are just working to confirm there's going to calm succeed. I want to I want to calm notification. So I'm going to help you so buddy, this has been this has been confirmation number two, I'm going to ask confirmation number three in a very different voice I'm going to come in is do you really want to do this? Yeah. Four is sexy. Dothraki so just wait for that.

    Rod 51:11

    I'm coming. That's tautology, or Dothraki is six that's true.

    Will 51:14

    But I'm coming in with a variety of different ways just to ask you and I'd be happy with that. I'm different accent Yeah, because because there might be a

    Rod 51:22

    Escuse me are you sure

    Will 51:26

    obviously I will have one in a Russian accent

    Rod 51:29

    Hello die or another? What do you want to do? Swami are here I want to know do you want me to kill you or do it?

    Will 51:36

    Come round I'm right here he's over right here just outside come on

    Rod 51:40

    My friend is over for you. Unless you don't want it to be

    Will 51:45

    so I would be happy I would be happy with multiple confirmations. I don't mind I think multiple is good. I agree with you. You know that there'll be people that go I'm a bit drunk and I'm getting into the booth and

    Rod 51:56

    so like if I'd wheeled one out into the room outside I'd lie down have

    Will 52:01

    I drank the MSG I you know you know I'm an idiot I'm getting into the booth it's true. I might drive you might take three confirmations just a thought

    Rod 52:08

    you know the fourth one would be me going dude, you fucking idiot. What are you doing man by make make make we're gonna do an episode next week. That's what I'd say to you. And that was my commitment that will pull you out it's almost like oh and children

    Will 52:20

    all humans are defined by their debts.

    Rod 52:22

    Dave Grover me fucking David David David one so if they pass all those they take the knock was at 9 million confirmations one from me one from your experience right their experience you need to review its trade right print one on Amazon. You then get the there's a liquid nitrogen in the generator it gets released. The oxygen levels dropped. Exactly but pleasantly more like hot

    Will 52:47

    gas doesn't come out like a hot no doesn't this that is not a hot boom have you?

    Rod 52:55

    I don't want to hop is it's like a kind of elbow pad isn't it?

    Will 52:58

    I remember. I don't know if this is super tangent, but go to the farmers market. And there's people busking on a full well, people person busking

    Rod 53:10

    was the face so sincere that I nearly made you blow

    Will 53:12

    off the charts. Like I was just like, holy shit. You learn to play the harp you wackadoo person. Yes. And you put it in the trailer and dragged on.

    Rod 53:22

    You've gone one step too far. And you have one.

    Will 53:25

    I'm sorry, harp playing listeners hops. It's the wildest instrument.

    Rod 53:31

    They're not cheap. They're not cheap.

    Will 53:34

    But it's also you've got some weird Zeus complex like you're imagining you're in the court on Olympus and I put him

    Rod 53:40

    I want to know as a terrible guitarist. What a way to get the strings and b How many other like like like nine and a half million strings? Which one did you break? One of them? What is it Gary x? Is there an excellent discount because I'm pretty sure I brought the extreme. So they do this the nitrogen is released thank you to the max dog and then within a minute or so they lose consciousness and then die quite quickly. When did they get the review and just before just before just before someone leaves unconscious,

    Will 54:13

    definitely full press the button Quick, give us a review.

    Rod 54:17

    You've got about 45 seconds if you've got time to write something that's great but a star will do listener

    Will 54:21

    if you want to give us a review to before you do that on iTunes or your or your or your death machine of choice do not need to suicide if you are listening to us in a death machine right now. Also, submit a review and thank you Sarco.

    Rod 54:36

    Thank you for taking us with you.

    Will 54:37

    What a way to go. So

    Rod 54:38

    Nitschke says a soccer death is painless. There's no suffocation or choking sensation or as he puts it, air hunger. So they breathe easily low oxygen environment, the sensation is one of wellbeing and intoxication. So he says again back to this piece he wrote in the Huffington in 2018. As I say my workshops you You're not only going to die once, sorry, you are only going to die once. So why not make it the best way you can? In this case? I'm usually referring to Nimbutol the barbituate

    Will 55:09

    That's why you can Oh, are we really going with that?

    Rod 55:11

    Because I didn't bring it up. I was just reading words, you're going to talk about orgies?

    Will 55:15

    No, I was actually thinking more of me neither. Well, okay. Audio is not an part of it. But you know, of course, there is still the guitar solo where you explode because you're going in with with an orgy with with some sort of you're fighting. God, God. Yeah, exactly. So that's the way you come in. You're doing a guitar solo while you're kicking God in the face. And there's a weekend. And then you go just too far, you just go a little bit too far on all three of those things.

    Rod 55:49

    And that's why it's actually called psychosocial oopsy poopsie device just slipped over a little bit. So that is the way to go. This machine doesn't do all that. It's only a prototype. There's a limit what is wrong in your brain? So apparently, he's talks about how Nembutal look, it's peaceful, it's reliable, and it's basically dignified. But you know, it doesn't provide euphoria. Okay, whereas apparently, the nitrogen thing provides an extra set of you poor, you poor three, or you poor three, four. So basically, if you lose oxygen without suffocating, you get really high. So that sounds cool,

    Will 56:26

    as fightclub tells us, exactly happiest cows.

    Rod 56:29

    Are there any you were saying? They haven't built one have they? No, they have one.

    Will 56:34

    Did they take a better photograph that night up Photoshop?

    Rod 56:36

    No. The journo apparently, from the economist said I've lived I've lived in one in the field of tulips, so get fucked. It's real. I found no photos of that. But Niska says in 2018, again, the Sarco will not be for everyone. That's clear. By next year 2019. The open source plans will be freely available on the internet. Build your own. Yep. Comply with 3d printing. So I checked today, at exit international dotnet slash Sarco plans will be published in due course, and due

    Will 57:05

    That's changed to 2018. Yeah, then you go, I'll probably 2019 Yeah, then you go probably 2020 fusion and then you go into cross it's coming into course, because I didn't realise

    Rod 57:13

    it will be that it will be that it will be printed. It'll be available in the updated version of the peaceful pill II handbook brackets. Age caveats apply. But the pictures are fucking cool. So if you go to this site, this is way cooler. And look at the bottom bit. The bottom bits is portable. Coffin Incorporated.

    Will 57:31

    How you say that you stay in that you get buried straightaway. Yeah, that's cool. Oh, but what if I wanted my coffin to be more like? Something? Different?

    Rod 57:40

    Bed shaped? Yes. Everyone wants a bed shaped coffin. So you'd have to print it, but you can't. yet. So bottom line, great tech comedy shows. Is that okay? I do. I think it's okay.

    Will 57:52

    I think this is one of the most interesting questions because it is as a human to extend the rights to, to end your own life to everyone. Of course, that's a that's an intense place of justice. Like if we if we, if we see each other as equals, then we should say we should all be able to decide on our ending. Yeah, absolutely, I do. But this connects from the Northern Territory, through to other states doing this. And clearly Switzerland has legislation here. Victoria has legislation now. So the world has moved on along from all the way from Philip Minsky's original plans,

    Rod 58:27

    they still require terminal diagnosis or some equivalent.

    Will 58:31

    Exactly exactly. So so there are still limits on this. I think, I think it it is a fraught area where, you know, yeah, a long time ago, and this actually connects quite closely in ways that we haven't mentioned. You know, we talked a few weeks ago about what we do about people that want to live forever immortality. And and I think normal people, normal people, the only way to make that just is if we improve all the conditions around it. And so there's a part of me that says, we need, we need a whole lot of guarantees that not only that this is not made safe for the individual, but this is doing the right thing for society that I support, you know, my own right, like, if I, you know, I made it to 79. And I was like, Okay, I'm done, or, you know, terminal diagnosis, and, you know, rage against the dying of the light, I understand. So I would be for myself very much very much in favour of like, I deserve this ability towards time. Yes, this may, you know, that's my, my choice is what to do. But making it safe for society, making it safe, so that it is used in ways that are that are fair and safe for everyone is not as simple as so many of the

    Rod 59:41

    I agree. Just because it's complicated, though, doesn't mean we shouldn't try not at all.

    Will 59:45

    No. And this is my unfairness to the Northern Territory. It's small legislation, small area, and it's recognising the complexities of all of this absolutely that how do we decide the difference between someone who is has life experience Sam wants to go has a terminal diagnosis. You know, what sorts of site psychiatric diagnosis, all these kinds of things? I think these are questions that the I've seen it said before, anytime the state gets involved in death is dangerous. And yes, flip it around. I know, I know your position on and it's the same position as mine. The state has no right to take anyone's life not. So not ever, not at all. You're a terrible person did some terrible crimes, the state still doesn't have the right to end your life. I agree that but other countries don't. And so I think execution is abomination. Similarly, I think it is a very difficult area for the state to go, alright, it's alright to in this person's life

    Rod 1:00:40

    wildly complicated. There are so many conditions and they can always go wrong. There's no question that can always go wrong, always.

    Will 1:00:46

    And so always. So I'm not against the idea that we can get to a place and that potentially, I haven't looked into Switzerland's laws or Victoria's laws or anything like that so much, but that we can absolutely get to that place. But I think that that the pathways there, the advocates, often minimise the difficulties of this, and you've got the people that are hostile to it. So for example, religious people or something like that, right? No, there should be no grounds in which we do this. That's fine. But there's a whole bunch of people in the middle that are like, I want that, right. But I want it made safe for the world. And that's all hard. But

    Rod 1:01:21

    But also, I don't want to see my loved ones die. However, if your loved one is suffering, and they've chosen,

    Will 1:01:26

    and you wait until, you know, here's the other you know, I raised the easy case, myself, you know, where I say I want this choice? What about that choice where you are the significant other,

    Rod 1:01:36

    your wife or your fucking child?

    Will 1:01:38

    And we know we know that this comes down to when you are the significant other your wife or wife or husband child where you go? Or parent? Of course, I don't want and and and it's like,

    Rod 1:01:51

    yeah, because honestly, I mean, I've been in hospital a few times, it's easy to be the sick person in some ways.

    Will 1:01:57

    Imagine putting pressure on someone saying I want you to I want you to end my life. And you're like, I don't want to I don't have the guts and horrified but there's an interesting study a while back it compared end of life care. In American and French could be French could be Dutch context, I'm not quite sure same country, whatever Euro land. And in the French, the Dutch not in the American context. end of life decisions weren't very much up to the family next of kin. So they said, so this was like pull the plug decisions very much up to the family and the next of kin. In the duchy French case, it was up to the doctor. And so that so terminal condition, that's tricky. And you know, who ended up with far better outcomes? The doctor one? Yeah. Yeah, like 100%. Everyone, obviously, not the deceased birds for doctors, the family were much better off saying, okay, the doctor has said it. You know, here's the thing. We don't have the capacity, I don't think as individual citizens to know. Okay, how terminal is this? We don't we're told by a doctor. It's pretty terminal. And you're like, give it I heard you can struggle against cancer

    Rod 1:03:06

    By pretty terminal. Do you mean totally terminal?

    Will 1:03:09

    So yeah. And so there's a there's a bunch of things where it's like, it's actually better if the state ie the doctor steps in and goes, I'm sorry, it's time to there's literally no reason. Can you say goodbye and we will be at 12 o'clock pulling off the horrible, but everyone's outcomes are actually better.

    Rod 1:03:24

    I've been in hospital no one said at 12 o'clock, you're gonna get pulled off. I've never had that experience.

    Will 1:03:33

    We'll be back next week. Listener

    Rod 1:03:35

    We will.

    Will 1:03:36

    Give us your sources.

    Rod 1:03:38

    I'll give you some like the economist was one there are a lot. A lot of them are new sources and stuff. So I think the best way to talk about it is go to the shownotes because I got about 20 sources. I'm not going to read them a lot of ABC, Australian ABC, some New York Times, etc. Next door brewing Of course. Thank you. Shout out

    Will 1:03:57

    MaxDog was drinking beer.

Brianna Ansaldo
Previous
Next