What are the most common fears and phobias that people have today? Most of us can relate to having a healthy fear of sharks or getting sweaty palms at the idea of being stuck in a tiny space. It’s also pretty socially acceptable for someone to opt out of bungee jumping, or for a fellow aeroplane passenger to need a few deep breaths to calm themselves before takeoff.
Then of course there’s the fear of public speaking - which we all fear more than death, right? Maybe not… This claim seems to link back to a publication from 1977 called The Book of Lists, which in turn cites the London Times… which in turn references the 1973 Burskin Report. This claims that 41 per cent of people feared speaking before a group, whereas only 19 per cent feared death.
While this report is outdated (and has a questionable interpretation of data!), somehow the narrative that people fear public speaking more than death has stuck. Heck, even Jerry Seinfeld joked that people would prefer to be in the casket than deliver a eulogy. So if a comedian says it, it’s fact, right? Well sure, it makes for a good laugh (tell us you haven’t got that bass line in your head right now) but the truth is, participants in that study weren’t asked to rate what they feared MOST. They were just asked to pick items from a list representing situations in which they had some degree of fear. So sure, lots of people said they were afraid of public speaking, but it doesn’t mean they feared it MORE than death.
Okay, Seinfeld’s research for his comedy routine didn’t include reading the fine print of the 1973 Burskin Report. We’ll let that one go and move on to what other research is saying about common fears and phobias.
In 2020 and 2021, Chapman University in California did a survey asking American adults about their fears. Researchers found that the fear of public speaking didn’t even enter the top 10. Turns out the number one fear was of corrupt government officials. Widespread civil unrest and white supremacists were high up on the list too. Perhaps these results were somewhat correlated with who the President was at the time?
The second biggest fear was “people I love dying” (one we can all have empathy for) but one’s own death and public speaking were all the way down at numbers 53 and 54 respectively. In Australia, a survey conducted in 2015 showed a similarly low ranking for public speaking, with social phobias and agoraphobia topping the list. C’mon Aussies, pull yourselves together. Just get out of the house, go to the pub and talk to people!
While it’s clear from the surveys that public speaking doesn’t top the list of fears, we need to take into account the intensity of the fear. Perhaps the fear of public speaking might be more about the fear of humiliation or potential shame that comes along with it. What if I say something stupid? What if my mouth goes dry and I forget how to speak? Is my fly undone? The shame is real people.
So what gets your knickers in a knot? The fear of zombies or ghosts? Perhaps the fear of accidentally eating a feather? Or does the thought of high medical bills and confusing technology keep you up at night?
previous episode mentioned:
SOURCES:
Solomon, Robert C., 'Self-Reproach in Guilt, Shame, and Pride', True to Our Feelings: What Our Emotions Are Really Telling Us (2008; online edn, Oxford Academic, 3 Oct. 2011)
The 14 Worst Human Fears in the 1977 Book of Lists: where did this data really come from?
https://www.speakschmeak.com/2008/04/public-speaking-vs-death.html
Top 10 phobias and what they reveal about the strangeness of life | Mental health | The Guardian
Full article: Is Public Speaking Really More Feared Than Death?
The Thing We Fear More Than Death | Psychology Today Australia
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[00:00:00] Rod: So public speaking, most people fear it more than death.
[00:00:02] Will: Do they? Is that confirmed?
[00:00:03] Rod: Let's get into it. So people like Jerry Seinfeld made this very popular. Like his gag was more people would rather be in the casket than delivering the eulogy at a funeral. But academia's done it. Even like up until I found a paper, 2021, take a public speaking course and conquer the fear. The purpose of this research project was to investigate if students today still report a fear of public speaking more often than death. So where did it begin? It's hard to find.
[00:00:28] Will: Are you saying that Seinfeld didn't cite properly?
[00:00:31] Rod: That's why I stopped watching. That's why the show got cancelled.
[00:00:33] Will: You got a reference for suitcases. Am I right?
[00:00:37] Rod: You are. Many claims link it to the 1977 Book of Lists.
[00:00:42] Will: Doesn't sound fully science, but anyway.
[00:00:43] Rod: And their source, they quote the London Times. And so, where the hell did the London Times get it from? 1973 Bursken Report. And they report 41 percent of people Feared speaking before a group, while only 19 percent feared death.
[00:01:03] Shame is a horrible, damaging, and gross emotion. Would you agree?
[00:01:06] Will: I don't like it.
[00:01:07] Rod: You don't really experience it though, do you?
[00:01:08] Will: Oh, I would. Like, if necessary, yes. I'm a human that is not Donald Trump. Of course I feel shame.
[00:01:15] Rod: It's gross, right? It's fucking horrible. And look, we know, we will go to astounding lengths to avoid shame in the first place. Or we will Sometimes do the most extreme things possible to try and alleviate the pain of the shame. Jean-Paul Sartre the famous French pastry chef. This is his sort of take on it. We're most painfully aware of ourselves, of our own indubitable existence when we are ashamed. I'm like, Ooh, that's a good call. I hadn't thought of it that way.
[00:01:40] Will: I mean, painfully aware. But you're most gloriously aware when other things are happening. Painfully aware. Yes. No I get what he's saying. He's like you know, you're there when you're feeling deeply ashamed.
[00:01:50] Rod: Well, that's what he says. You know, this is someone else talking about him. In our everyday actions, we may well lose ourselves in what we're doing. Like when we're being entertained, we lose our sense of self. We're just sort of lost in the flow state. Yep. That sort of thing. But in shame, we are agonizingly the center of our own attention
[00:02:05] Will: ripped out of flow state and thrust into our super ego.
[00:02:09] Rod: Oh, yeah. I'd already, I feel a little bit. He also says, we feel all eyes, or at least the important eyes that are riveted on us and we cannot escape when we aren't deep in shame. So when we're ashamed, we're deeply self conscious. It's fair to say. Yeah. And when we're public speaking, all eyes are literally on us. But to me, it's like, that means I'll see a connection. You're like, it's no surprise. Therefore that everybody knows and everybody agrees, everyone that most people fear public speaking even more than death. Like everyone knows for sure. 100%. That's true.
[00:02:39] Will: Certainly a joke that I've heard many times.
[00:02:41] Rod: Infinity times.
[00:02:42] Will: Is it true?
[00:02:43] Rod: Well, let's get into that.
[00:02:51] Will: Welcome to the wholesome show
[00:02:52] Rod: the podcast that fears nothing that lurks in the whole of science.
[00:02:56] Will: Nothing. Except sharks, but other than that, no fears. No, no fears about anything you can show us any science paper. We'll handle it.
[00:03:04] Rod: A couple have made me a little bit scared Maybe not ashamed.
[00:03:08] Will: I'm will grant.
[00:03:09] Rod: I'm rod lamberts. Before we dig in. We want you to stick around. Why don't you remember at the end of this?
[00:03:14] Will: Oh, we'll go through a few of your lovely comments.
[00:03:16] Rod: You want to share what's been shared with us?
[00:03:18] Will: That's at the end of the episode
[00:03:19] Rod: Is it true, like, is it true that most people fear public speaking more than death? And we talked about this, we brought this up previously.
[00:03:24] Will: I, look, I'm just going to throw a guess in here and say whether it is the number one fear, definitely a lot of people do not like the public speaking. And I absolutely remember in my journey through life, having periods of not loving the public speaking. You know, going back to your point about shame, it's when all the eyes are on you.
[00:03:43] Rod: Like if you accidentally wee yourself sitting at your desk, you don't get too ashamed. But if you accidentally wear yourself in front of 400 people, you're like, this is worse. I remember shitting myself before I gave my very first lecture about four and a half thousand years ago. I didn't actually shit myself. I don't think I did. I remember being pants wettingly nervous and I remember I'd scripted every word, which I haven't done since.
[00:04:02] Will: That is the best way to deliver a lecture.
[00:04:03] Rod: Absolutely. Cause it's natural then.
[00:04:04] Will: Yeah. Yeah. That's what the students are looking for.
[00:04:07] Rod: And then following the events of 1863,
[00:04:10] Will: like between us, we have too many years of in classroom yelling at students experience, but definitely my first as well. I was like, Ooh, we think my very first lecture, there was a big stick for opening up the window. It was like one of those window opening sticks that they leave in the room, you know, to open up the high ones.
[00:04:28] You know how I am a person that needs to be touching things all the time. I need to keep my hands moving. And at some point I grabbed the stick and at some point I'm part Gandalf and part laser pointed guy with a giant pole.
[00:04:42] Rod: That's why the front row diving for cover every time you turn around. Fuck.
[00:04:46] Will: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Your brain does weird things.
[00:04:48] Rod: Well, the only time I remember being super terrified was when I went and auditioned for some show that the ABC didn't end up running, when you had to go and give a little presentation. And I gave what I created and scripted every word of this presentation.
[00:05:01] And I thought I'm not comfortable doing this, but anyway, I memorized it. And then I got into the room and I thought it's going to be fine because, I'm the reverse of many people. If there's an audience, I'm fine, because then you got something to riff off and get the idea. I walk into the room, it's a giant empty TV studio, all blacked out, except for the three people doing the judging. And I was basically, and they said, okay, now an impromptu one, and I can't read the topic. And I went, yeah.
[00:05:27] Will: So public speaking, so is it everyone's number one fear?
[00:05:29] Rod: Well, let's talk about fear and phobia. I mean, we should define our terms, right? Yeah, that's important because we are a science adjacent program.
[00:05:35] Will: Okay. What's the difference between fear and a phobia?
[00:05:37] Rod: Well, this is a good question. So I looked that up and there's plenty of people who want to talk about it. Harvard and psychiatrists and stuff. So this source will do fear is an emotional response.
[00:05:45] Will: No shit. Thanks science.
[00:05:47] Rod: Welcome. Thank God for this source. Person can react fearfully to either a real threat or a perceived one. It can be a good thing because it helps.
[00:05:54] Will: Can be a good thing. Yeah, totally. Totally. You got a shark about to eat you.
[00:05:57] Rod: You're like frightened is smart. And they say, of course, you can develop fears of many things. Yes. Some people develop a fear response such as shaking or sweating when they confront their fears. Phobias, however. It's a response to something that they defined as not a threat. And I think what they mean is literally physically likely to harm you.
[00:06:17] Will: Okay. So let's go to two classics, a phobia of feathers, not a threat, not going to hurt you except for the gross disease.
[00:06:25] Rod: Yeah but you've lived a normal life with that fear though. You even wear a down jacket,
[00:06:29] Will: they're concealed in a layer.
[00:06:30] Rod: I know you're glad wrap yourself or saran wrap for our Americans.
[00:06:33] Will: But, okay. So, so that's not legitimate. The other classic fear that everyone's like, Oh, claustrophobia, you know, small spaces. I feel like that's not a phobia. That's legitimate recognition that small confined spaces can murder you.
[00:06:44] Rod: Yeah, I agree. It's a legitimate fear. Is it a phobia? Well, I mean, no, some people are better at being realistic about it. Like you put me in an MRI machine with my eyes open
[00:06:53] Will: you're not actually likely to die.
[00:06:54] Rod: Yeah, no, but I will freak out. Like I'm really like, and in my head I'm looking at going, I can get out whenever I want. There's a hole at this end. There's a hole at that end. They deliberately blow a breeze over you. You have headphones on.
[00:07:06] Will: Do you have like your legs in a rope with a pulley that you can just pull yourself out?
[00:07:09] Rod: Actually, normally they cuff me. Not with metal cuffs though. So phobia, yeah, like it's over the top. Then they're often called irrational fears because it's like, look, that, that won't hurt you. But people still wig out.
[00:07:20] Will: But there is a borderline where they become rational. So you're buried alive in a coffin. It's not claustrophobia. You have legitimate fears that you are going to die.
[00:07:27] Rod: Existential threat.
[00:07:28] Will: Okay, cool. I just wanted to draw the boundary there. Absolutely. So next time, listener, you are buried in a coffin. You can say, no, this is not my claustrophobia. I'm legitimately shitting myself here.
[00:07:38] Rod: I'm a human being who would like to live. And also they add with phobias, the mere idea of the thing about which you are phobic can trigger all the responses as if it's right there in front of you. Oh yeah. So that's a bit more than like, I don't want a brown snake to bite me, but thinking about a brown snake doesn't make me freak out. Seeing one really close to me makes me very aware. Seeing in the distance, I'm like, cool, a snake.
[00:07:57] Will: And whatever, you're meant to be scared of snakes
[00:07:59] Rod: I know exactly. But if I was phobic, the fact that I'm talking about it would make me start to wobble in my loins . It's about, I think, I don't know, strength and rationality, so to speak. Also, people are often ashamed or embarrassed about their symptoms, particularly of phobias. So it all comes blending together
[00:08:15] Will: the sweating and the shaken.
[00:08:17] Rod: Yeah. Or they're just like if it's you and someone goes, here's this lovely fell feather quill pen and you start throwing up on yourself and you're like, I feel a bit awkward about
[00:08:24] Will: I don't feel that bad about feathers. I just don't want to eat any.
[00:08:27] Rod: That's fair though. Again, not a phobia. Eating feathers, not good. It's not
[00:08:32] Will: I thought that's what you all did. I thought you were all feather eating weirdos. I was the only one that didn't eat the feathers. I really did.
[00:08:40] Rod: Yeah. Not anymore. Two of us don't
[00:08:43] Will: like chomping down on a big chicken feather. Or like a big galah feather, you know
[00:08:47] Rod: there was nothing about the texture that makes me think, put that in my mouth. Run my tongue along it.
[00:08:51] Will: There you go. You know, you tough guy, you know, the people that do the iron guts, you know, I'll eat a dozen raw eggs or I'll eat you know, super hot chili or something.
[00:09:00] Rod: I'll eat that over a feather.
[00:09:01] Will: I want to see someone eat a feather.
[00:09:03] Rod: Cause also you get the stuck, the bits getting in between your teeth.
[00:09:06] Will: No, you're dying. Like absolutely. It's lodging in your gullet trap, technical term there, and it's stuck with featheriness for forever. And it's a big feather. I want like a ostrich feather, peacock, like tough, like a cockatoo big long white.
[00:09:28] Rod: Are you saying you don't want to eat a cockatoo feather?
[00:09:31] Will: Hey. That's an Australian fellatio joke.
[00:09:35] Rod: It is. Most Australian fellatio is a joke. That's what I've heard.
[00:09:39] Will: Hey, I didn't know that.
[00:09:40] Rod: They say, people tell me. So, I mean, also phobia is a word that often it's been overused now. Like the literal meaning of it is kind of, it's gone so into the popular culture. Like you say, someone's transphobic, they're not necessarily shaking, freaking out and throwing up.
[00:09:53] Will: What? No, can we pause on that for a second? So, so yeah, I mean, there are many that say the various sorts of phobias, homophobia, transphobia that's not necessarily about a fear, but it's about a hatred.
[00:10:05] Rod: Yeah, it's a bigotry, not a fear.
[00:10:06] Will: But that term seems okay.
[00:10:08] Rod: I think I got no beef with using it because we know what it means, but it's not, I don't think good use of the word phobia. Like I think it's an inaccurate portrayal of the word phobia
[00:10:17] Will: linguists. You need to sort this out and tell us your final call.
[00:10:21] Rod: So these are, we've defined our terms. We have been good and scholarly people. So public speaking more people or most people fear it more than death.
[00:10:28] Will: Do they? Is that confirmed?
[00:10:29] Rod: Let's get into it. So people like Jerry Seinfeld made this very popular. Like his gag was more people would rather be dead in a casket than deliver a eulogy at a funeral. Yeah. And I'm like, no. But I suppose you're dead once you're in the casket.
[00:10:43] But academia has done it even like up until I found a paper 2021, take a public speaking course and conquer the fear. And I'll just read the first sentence of the abstract. The purpose of this research project was to investigate if students today still report a fear of public speaking more often than death. And if after completing a public speaking course, their fears change.
[00:11:01] Will: So still report as if this is accepted knowledge. All right.
[00:11:05] Rod: We all know it is, right? So where did it begin? The best I could find. It's hard to find.
[00:11:09] Will: Are you saying that Seinfeld didn't cite properly?
[00:11:13] Rod: I know. That's why I stopped watching.
[00:11:14] Will: What the fuck?
[00:11:15] Rod: That's why the show got cancelled after a mere 10 seasons and 80 billion dollars.
[00:11:19] Will: He didn't cite all sources. He got a reference for suitcases. Am I right?
[00:11:25] Rod: You are. So, many claims link it to the 1977 book of lists.
[00:11:30] Will: It doesn't sound fully science, but anyway.
[00:11:32] Rod: Well, it's, there's a bunch of editors and they've had one article on pages 469 and 470 of this book, the 14 worst human fears. And their source, they quote the London times.
[00:11:44] Will: Right. Okay. Still a newspaper, but yeah.
[00:11:48] Rod: And so where the hell did the London times get it from? And they're claiming probably, and this seems to be the core most common actual maybe source, 1973 Burskin report and they report 41 percent of people feared speaking before a group while only 19 percent feared death.
[00:12:04] Will: Okay. Just to pause here. More people fearing it doesn't mean that the fear is more prominent in those people.
[00:12:11] Rod: No, it does not.
[00:12:12] Will: They are radically different people. Like, like you can list, you can go, okay, what are your fears? And people go, all right, sharks, death, public speaking, whatever, Eating feathers, and you can put them all in, but you're not then saying which one.
[00:12:24] Rod: More people said death therefore everyone fears death more than all the other things.
[00:12:27] Will: It's dumb. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is just. More people fear. It is not the same as you fear it more.
[00:12:33] Rod: Yeah. And people weren't asked to pick a degree of fear. They were given a list of things and the biggest one, the one that most people listed as being frightening or, you know, most commonly, but not only listed with speaking before a group.
[00:12:43] Will: So it's a common fear. Okay.
[00:12:44] Rod: Yeah. 41 percent in 1973, but they weren't asked to rate
[00:12:48] Will: fucking hard asses back then though. 19 percent fear death. I don't fear death. It's the 1960s.
[00:12:53] Rod: Whatever. I tripped my way out of it.
[00:12:55] Will: I look at the face of God and I spit. What else are their fears?
[00:12:58] Rod: So, two and a half thousand male and female adults who are asked to pick from a list of fears. Which ones they feared to some degree.
[00:13:04] Will: We've got speaking before a group, public speaking. Heights. Heights was number two. I'm stealing your stuff here. Well, can you tell me, do you fear these or not speaking before a group? Heights?
[00:13:15] Rod: Yeah, but as soon as you put proper climbing gear and shit on me, I'm insane. I don't give a crap about it.
[00:13:19] Will: I love heights.
[00:13:20] Rod: Yeah. But if I'm just standing at a lookout that plummets down to the ocean with a thin wire, I'm like, I can step up to it, but I'm,
[00:13:26] Will: no, if you're by yourself, like you see those videos of those Russian kids that climb to the top of a a construction site, tallest building in the world and then they're dancing on the top of it.
[00:13:36] Rod: So just watching that makes all my masculine parts climb up to just below my throat. And I've just got to sit there and try and tap them down out of fear.
[00:13:45] Will: My hands, I was talking to my daughter, I was watching this. My hands are just dripping like the sweat. And it's like, fuck me, fuck you body. Like if your reaction to being in a high place is you know what? I'll just make it harder. I'm going to make you slip. That's what you need. All right. What else we got? We got insects and bugs. Yeah. Okay. Next after that is financial problems. Like, we're combining a random list of things here.
[00:14:09] Rod: We don't know, try and find the original
[00:14:10] Will: deep water. I love visualizing deep water. Like when you're out somewhere deep, I used to go swimming in this volcano, old volcano.
[00:14:17] Rod: Thank you for qualifying.
[00:14:18] Will: Sorry. Sorry. I used to love halfway through. You talk to the person that you're swimming. You're in the middle of the volcano. He's like, you know how deep this goes. But I can't get back.
[00:14:28] Rod: Yeah and that's the height thing. Cause I've been, I remember sitting in a tinny, like a little tin boat over a very deep part of the ocean for the first time in my life. And went, this is really cool. I've been on the water. Then I looked down and went, I'm a long way up. I know this water, but I'm a long way up.
[00:14:42] Will: All right. So sickness, death, flying, loneliness. Finally, they get a real fear. Fuck. Finally, a real fear.
[00:14:49] Rod: In the seventies though. No one cared.
[00:14:51] Will: Dogs? Driving in a car, 8. 8%. I can't believe that. okay. Darkness, elevators, escalators.
[00:14:59] Rod: Escalators. I mean, elevator, that's one thing. It's a box in a cylinder and it could plummet at one, but it could an escalator though? You're afraid of slightly moving staircase.
[00:15:11] Will: Well, like people got weird fears.
[00:15:14] Rod: They do. Well, speaking of weird fears, let's look at two countries, America and us. Cause this is awesome. So what do people actually fear the most allegedly?
[00:15:21] Will: This is the people fear the most or most people fear it?
[00:15:24] Rod: Okay. This is a study from Chapman university. The survey of American fears wave seven. 2020, 2021. So top 10 fears of which the highest percentage of Americans reported being afraid or very afraid. So at least afraid. The top 10 of a sample of 1, 035 people. And for some reason they asked him about 95 fears. I don't know why 95 different fears.
[00:15:45] Will: My fear is long lists.
[00:15:46] Rod: Oh, I'm not going to read all of them. I'm just going to read you some of the fun ones. Number one. Can you guess your, you already seen it? Corrupt government officials.
[00:15:53] Will: My fear is corrupt government.
[00:15:55] Rod: 80 percent said afraid or very afraid.
[00:15:57] Will: Coming for them personally. What year was this?
[00:15:59] Rod: 2020, 2021
[00:16:01] Will: Donald Trump. It's like, you know, setting up the deep States fear. Wow.
[00:16:07] Rod: Second was people I love dying.
[00:16:10] Will: Oh, that's very legitimate. That's definitely not a phobia.
[00:16:13] Rod: These are fears. Yeah. They, they certainly didn't call them phobias. I mean, they wander on down. Number five widespread civil unrest. Again, this is very much a product of the time. Six is pandemics, major epidemics, blah, blah, blah. Death does not feature specifically in the top 10, neither does public speaking. 23. I'll just pick out some nice ones. 23 is white supremacists. 24 is high medical bills. This is American.
[00:16:39] Will: Get yourself a public health state. Seriously. Buy one of those. They're pretty good. You can get them off the shelf. Like these days
[00:16:45] Rod: other people have tried them out for you and they seem to work quite well.
[00:16:48] Will: You can go have Sweden, have Australia, have France, you know, they're there.
[00:16:53] Rod: I mean, for our American listeners, I'd have a surgery done last year and I actually had to pay nearly 5, 000 out of pocket and I was ready to go on a rampage. I was ready to become a violent.
[00:17:01] Will: This was getting your fingernails cut. Well, that's about the price for 5, 000. You can get your fingernails cut.
[00:17:05] Rod: They were long and thick. I'm going to say creamy, but it was more like milky.
[00:17:09] Will: I know. I know. It's the classic rest of the world joke, but seeing, sorry Americans, seeing like your medical bill for, you know, I broke a finger and it's like
[00:17:17] Rod: That'll be your house.
[00:17:18] Will: Yeah and your neighbor's house. You gotta steal it off them and give it to the hospital.
[00:17:22] Rod: And donate a kidney. And we're going to charge you for the donation. What the fuck are you talking about? Some other classics. 42. The Proud Boys. Specific. 32 percent of people said they are afraid or very afraid of the Proud Boys.
[00:17:33] Will: Well, I think the Proud Boys would claim that as a success.
[00:17:35] Rod: Oh, they'd want to be higher up the list. Like, what do you mean we're only 42nd?
[00:17:38] Will: Probably, yeah, but they're above any other group. Like, except for corrupt government officials.
[00:17:42] Rod: No, right wing extremists were a bit higher.
[00:17:44] Will: Okay, so we've got white supremacists, this is very specific for the times.
[00:17:48] Rod: Well, this is the list they were given. I mean, left wing extremists came in down at number 56, so they're not as scary.
[00:17:53] Will: Up your game lefties?
[00:17:55] Rod: I know, right? Come on, be more extreme. So there's this great little cluster between 29 percent and 30 percent of people rated it. And this is relevant. So 50th police brutality, 51st sharks.
[00:18:06] Will: Finally, a real fricking good fear.
[00:18:10] Rod: Dying comes in after theft of property. Only just. Take my TV. Not kill me instead. Public speaking is one under dying.
[00:18:20] Will: So what level are we down to?
[00:18:21] Rod: 54th. 29 percent of people rate it as afraid or very afraid.
[00:18:25] Will: Maybe. Flip this around. And maybe since the 60s people in America have solved that problem. And hats off to you all again. Every time I have American students in my classroom.
[00:18:35] Rod: They don't look dead, do they?
[00:18:36] Will: A, yes, but also B, they are not afraid of public speaking.
[00:18:40] Rod: Hell no, they're not.
[00:18:41] Will: Of all the people's American high schools have absolutely embraced it in a way that other countries haven't and hats off to you. I think we should do it more.
[00:18:48] Rod: I used to notice it in interviews on TV shows, current affairs stuff when I was a kid. Whenever they interviewed an American kid, the kids started speaking like they were built to be on a microphone. And it's just, let me tell you all about it.
[00:18:59] Will: Pick a random kid and they're structured. They're eloquent, like, like hats off. You guys, you did that one.
[00:19:03] Rod: Well, an Australian kid at the time on me, I'd be going, keep the constitution. You're five. You shouldn't know that. What have we got? We've got a couple of others. 72nd was Antifa. Okay. Murder hornets came in at 77.
[00:19:21] Will: I don't like the name of murder hornets.
[00:19:22] Rod: Great name. Isn't it? What kind of hornet is it? It's fucking murder.
[00:19:25] Will: I don't want to get bitten by any hornet stung by
[00:19:27] Rod: 82nd for the oldies out there. Technology that I don't understand. They're afraid or very afraid of it. And then we'll just get to the last ones. 88. Ghosts.
[00:19:37] Will: They used to be higher. They used to be higher. I told you ghosts were dying.
[00:19:43] Rod: Well, yeah, 9 percent of people.
[00:19:44] Will: Maybe ghosts have died since social media. There. Tell me, listener.
[00:19:47] Rod: Oh, technology kills ghosts.
[00:19:48] Will: No, it might've done. It might've done. There's a theory. Ain't proven by science yet.
[00:19:52] Rod: It's not a great theory. Well, no, it's not a very well constructed theory yet.
[00:19:55] Will: Listener, if you ever want to get on the cones and talk about if ghosts were killed by Social media, report it back to us
[00:20:00] Rod: cheers@wholesomeshow.Com. Just ping us. But you're buying
[00:20:03] Will: so we got stoned and talked about it.
[00:20:07] Rod: Zombies came after ghosts. Blood, slightly lower.
[00:20:11] Will: Wait. Just to pause for a second. What would you prefer? Chased by a ghost or chased by a zombie?
[00:20:16] Rod: Ghost, cause I'm convinced the way to handle ghosts is with your sheer willpower.
[00:20:21] Will: Close your eyes and walk through it
[00:20:22] Rod: or you just like, you cannot hurt me and if you believe it enough, so does the ghost.
[00:20:25] Will: No see, for me, one zombie means many zombies. There is no scenario where you are in, you're in a zombie apocalypse. Once you've seen a zombie, you're at the bleeding edge of the zombie apocalypse. But ghost could be by itself. Ghost is singular.
[00:20:37] Rod: That's true. No argument there. 94th was clowns just by the way. What about Australia? So how cool are we? 2015.
[00:20:45] Will: We're not so worried about Antifa or Proud Boys?
[00:20:47] Rod: Yeah, none of those are in the top 10. We've got social phobias, this is so intellectual, we're so intellectual, social phobias.
[00:20:53] Will: Oh, afraid to go to a party? Thanks Australia. Be cool man.
[00:20:56] Rod: Yes. Yeah just do it. But they're saying some people are so scared of being judged in their social phobias. They don't even want to do things like eat in front of someone else or something like
[00:21:05] Will: Oh, how many people don't want to eat in front of people? I love eating in front of people. I love watching people eat. I am a big fan. I think eating is a social thing and it's what humans were designed to do. It's like, you know, we're a rational reasoning creature and we're a sexual creature and we're a creature that eats and watches each other eat and that's it. It's all of it. And reasoning.
[00:21:25] Rod: You love watching people eat, or do you love
[00:21:28] Will: it's not sexual. It's just more.
[00:21:29] Rod: Who said that was sexual?
[00:21:30] Will: You did. You did it with your tone.
[00:21:33] Rod: Oh, what else we got? Agoraphobia. Open space fear.
[00:21:35] Will: Australia. Go live in a different country. Idiot. Like seriously.
[00:21:40] Rod: Fourth comes in fear of flying. But then as we go down the list, we got claustrophobia, which again, I think is perfectly reasonable. We talked about that earlier. Like. Being afraid of clusters is quite reasonable. And a lot of people, there are a lot of claims that say, well, it's kind of linked to an evolutionary program. It's like, it would be, I'm shutting a box and can't get out. I don't need a lot of programming to realize that's terrible
[00:21:59] Will: it's literally something that we made a decision like billions of years ago. There was like the snake oriented folk and they went, fuck yeah, holes are awesome. Make them nice and tight and I'm snug. And there's the other folks that went, fuck that. I am trapped in this thing. No, thank you.
[00:22:14] Rod: I want windows. I want doors. I want sky.
[00:22:15] Will: Yep. No, I am definitely down on that.
[00:22:17] Rod: A hundred percent. And they rattle down to the, they go fear of insects, fear of snakes. Dogs, storms, needles, and an honourable mention went to swooping magpies, which is very Australian and fair enough.
[00:22:28] Will: Good work. Good work, Australia.
[00:22:30] Rod: The wholesome verdict on this one, obviously, I personally call bullshit on the fear of public speaking more than death, or you'd rather die than public speak. I think that's garbage. I can imagine though, related to people's sense of humiliation. Like when you relate public speaking to the idea that you might be humiliated and ashamed, that's bigger, I think. That's not just public speaking.
[00:22:51] Will: I can imagine that it contains some of the worst possible outcomes, like being looked at by everyone that you care about your community, whatever it is. And suddenly it all goes to really bad
[00:23:03] Rod: pants poo. And then it's like, so for me, it's not like it's public speaking per se. It's just that maximizes an opportunity for feeling humiliated or ashamed
[00:23:09] Will: you are not humiliated for being eaten by a shark. It just hurts a lot.
[00:23:14] Rod: Yes, I don't think I'd go. I'm really embarrassed. My leg got bitten off.
[00:23:16] Will: I feel like it would suck if you felt embarrassed while you're being eaten by a shark.
[00:23:20] Rod: God, this is terrible. I hope no one can see me. Just, I'll be quiet. I don't want anyone to notice. And so the only thing I will say though, is given, you know, we are a science hugging program. Yep. I think we should do some primary research on this. So I'm calling for volunteers who are prepared to be threatened with death and or public speaking. You'll be paid in appreciation.
[00:23:41] Will: What do they have to do?
[00:23:42] Rod: I'm going to put people in two groups. One of you, you'll get murdered and the other part, the other half won't though.
[00:23:48] Will: You can't do it.
[00:23:49] Rod: I can't? I'm not doing this through the union. It's our ethics committee on this. This is media. You can do whatever you want. That's one thing I've learned. I mean, would you agree, it's bullshit, right? It's not true that it's as simple as that. It's bullshit. Yeah, it's bullshit. We have called it
[00:24:08] Will: The topics to talk about next week then.
[00:24:10] Rod: Another one I'm very curious about, what's going on with human hierarchies in the connection to lobsters, according to Jordan Peterson.
[00:24:16] Will: Wait, so human hierarchies are changing because lobsters. Ah, yeah, okay, Jordan Peterson. Don't try and unpack Jordan Peterson. That's the rule.
[00:24:24] Rod: No, this one's worth it. But it is fascinating, it is the most, it's deliciously scientistic.
[00:24:30] Will: Alright, I got one from Stephen in Adelaide. Thank you very much for your suggestion. And as everyone out there, remember, send them in. We want to know what you want to know. This is a good one, and you would love this. This is your guy. Okay. So this is a famous story. It's come up in, in movies. It's come up in a few places. It's the story of D. B. Cooper. D. B. Cooper is a famous disappearance. He hijacked a plane. Nicked some stuff from people on the plane. Got a parachute. Jumped out of the plane. This is in America in the 60s or 70s. Gone. No one ever found him. Who is this guy? Where did he go? What happened? And it's one of the great mysteries. And I think, you know, how could you possibly just disappear as much as he did?
[00:25:10] Rod: Well, then the surprises we've got him on next week. I've got another one. The love story between lice, parasites, etc. and people.
[00:25:17] Will: Is this a story that's gonna make me happy or not?
[00:25:19] Rod: Well, you're into pubic lice, aren't you?
[00:25:21] Will: Is this one of those ones where you tell me that everyone in Australia is 30 centimetres away from a pubic lice at any time?
[00:25:27] Rod: Other people who live out in the country, maybe. I think it's a love story.
[00:25:33] Will: Oh my god. This is just a, you know, an ideological position of mine, but in, I don't know what year, but they invented a crime. It's the crime of jaywalking. Walking across the street wrongly. Who was it? Who came up with the idea you have to cross the street
[00:25:50] Rod: That one. You want to see me just frothing and incoherent for 30 minutes? Boom, let's do that one
[00:25:54] Will: alright. Petty laws.
[00:25:55] Rod: My only other one is, why do redheads fascinate us so much? What's this mystique and craziness and weirdness around redheads?
[00:26:01] Will: Really?
[00:26:01] Rod: Oh yeah. And I don't just mean a certain subcategory on certain websites.
[00:26:06] Will: What's an example?
[00:26:07] Rod: They're all possessed by ghosts and don't have a soul.
[00:26:10] Will: Oh, well, I mean, but that's just science. All right, the last one I got it's, I don't know what this means, but the standard hollywood stereotype of The apocalypse is giant asteroid, giant volcano, zombie apocalypse, tidal wave earth splits in half, plenty of those, and they're cool as fuck. like if you were choosing how your species is going to go out.
[00:26:29] Rod: Heroin overdose. There's a lot of heroin.
[00:26:33] Will: Well, here's the thing, there's a bunch of people arguing that the most likely way that we go out is what's called a boring apocalypse.
[00:26:39] Rod: Oh, come on.
[00:26:41] Will: I know, right?
[00:26:42] Rod: So much paperwork, you get paper cuts till you die.
[00:26:45] Will: Yes. It's just, it's an apocalypse, but it's not exciting. It's boring. And I'll tell you more about that if you're interested. All right. All right. I just got to go for a little bit of mailbag here. Dr. Gianluca Grimaldi, who you may remember famously. We had a chat with him six months ago on his long journey back from his research site in Papua New Guinea towards Germany, where he worked.
[00:27:09] Rod: He was adamantly in favour of environmentally positive travel.
[00:27:13] Will: Yeah, his big thing, I mean he's a climate researcher, he's like, I don't fly and I don't want to fly. He was fired by his workers for taking too long to get to work.
[00:27:23] Rod: German university, right?
[00:27:24] Will: Yeah. Yeah. Research Institute. So yeah he took cargo ships and trucks and took eventually took him 72 days to get home, which is fine. Work starts at 9am in 72 days.
[00:27:37] Rod: I'm taking two days off, but I'm going to need 160 because I've got to get there and back again.
[00:27:42] Will: He had just gone through a German labor court appealing this decision and they upheld the original judgment and so he lost his appeal that he has been sacked by the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. And look, I mean, I am not a labor lawyer or anything like that. But, he is a climate researcher and he believes in practicing what you preach.
[00:28:02] Rod: It's not like he wasn't doing some work on the boats.
[00:28:04] Will: There's a petition out there that you can sign if you'd like.
[00:28:07] Rod: Walking into German labor court, I wouldn't walk in thinking, I'm probably going to get away with this. It just sounds stern. This is German Labor Court, you're like, I'm pretty fucked. I just don't see where this is going to go well. I'm going to come off a little anti labor and they're not going to like that.
[00:28:23] Will: Look, maybe it's the friendliest court in the world. What is the friendliest court in the world?
[00:28:26] Rod: Not the German Labor Court.
[00:28:28] Will: Okay, I just wanted to flag a couple of awesome comments that people, you know, after workplace infantilization, everyone is a little bit triggered by their own workplace policies there.
[00:28:37] So Rosen9425 sent in some interesting details about terrible dress codes, which I think would actually be an awesome episode. World's worst dress code requirements and CamMac80 isn't allowed to use the word cheers at the end of his emails, as you said.
[00:28:51] Rod: Wait, what? CamMac80? More information, please. Cause that's just for personal use. You can't use cheers oh, because it might trigger the one alcoholic in the organisation?
[00:29:02] Will: I think that is the judgement. You got ideas for topics, you got critiques, you got comments, you got anything you want to say, hey fellas, you should do a thing send it in to cheers at wholesomeshow. com.
[00:29:11] Rod: Not if you're at Cam's workplace.
[00:29:13] Will: Or chuck it in a comment down below. Love you all, fight the good fight, live long and prosper.
[00:29:17] Rod: Don't wear pants.
[00:29:18] Will: Don't wear pants.
