Picture this: you're on a cargo ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, surrounded by a vast expanse of water when suddenly, you feel a sharp pain. No, it's not a metaphorical pang of regret for opting for the slow boat rather than the quick and painless intercontinental flight; it's an actual mite bite. Welcome to the wild world of Gianluca Grimalda, a climate scientist with a penchant for slow travel and an unwavering commitment to the environment… machete-wielding gangsters, bed bugs, job loss and all.
While some of us fret about recycling and turning off lights, for Gianluca, hopping on a plane is morally unacceptable, as it would account for 90% of his carbon footprint. Planes emit a whopping 2.5% of total CO2 emissions and are responsible for 4% of effective radiative forcing - a closer measure of the impact of global warming. And with literally 6 million people taking flights every single day (not to mention the thousands of empty planes airlines fly across our skies to keep their flight paths safe), those figures aren’t going to land any time soon.
So what’s the solution for a dedicated German-based scientist whose fieldwork is located on the other side of the world in Bougainville, Papua New Guinea? Slow travel, of course! Gianluca has had an impeccable 13-year record of conscientious objection to flying, opting for slower, more sustainable methods of travel.
We’re joined by Gianluca himself today to hear about his epic journey from Papua New Guinea back home to Germany, avoiding planes and choosing ferries, cargo ships, trains, and coaches as his mode of travel. All while attempting to avoid pirates, war-torn countries, visa debacles and with this ultimatum from his boss… fly back now or lose your job.
Gianluca's primary mission in Papua New Guinea is to study how people adapt (or don’t) to climate change. Coastal communities there have already relocated inland due to sea-level rise and drought-induced famines. Climate change isn't just a concept in the distant future, it's affecting them now. And rather unfairly we might add, as they tread remarkably lightly on their patch of the planet.
So he made a promise to the people of Bougainville. Gianluca would reduce his carbon footprint as much as possible. Even if it meant losing his job (which he did). What a freaking legend.
You might say that the best way to reduce carbon emissions would be to not travel at all. Why not take that to the extreme and kill yourself? That would sort out your emissions nicely. But considering the incredible work Gianluca is doing in these remote communities to raise awareness of what’s really happening to our planet, the reason WHY they have no crops and WHY their coastal communities have had to relocate inland… Gianluca concludes the benefit far outweighs the cost.
“The more mad option, than losing my job over a single plane flight, is to return to business as usual as if earth’s resources are unbounded.” GIanluca’s commitment to his conservationist morals is nothing short of amazing. Leading by example, he hopes people who come across his amazing story will question both their need for air travel and their broader everyday decisions amidst a climate crisis actively impacting people right now.
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[00:00:00] Gianluca: For a researcher like me, catching a plane could represent 90 percent of my carbon footprint. Really, reducing flying is the fastest way to reduce their carbon footprint.
[00:00:12] Rod: Taking all these ships and merchant marine boats and it sounds exotic.
[00:00:15] Gianluca: It sounds romantic, but then when you sleep for 10 days on a cargo ship and you have to deal with the mice every night, you know, when mice bite you, you wake up because it's really painful. You cannot sleep. There is nothing you can do. And you just have to wait until the mice finish their banquette on your body. And so you can get on to sleep. There are many moments in which I ask myself why on earth am I doing it? But I'm determined to do it partly because of this promise, this commitment that I have with the people in Bougainville.
[00:00:47] Partly because, yeah, I mean, now I feel that I have the attention of all over the world on my travels because my story has really attracted so much attention worldwide that I feel kind of under surveillance.
[00:01:05] Will: Around the world, every single day, there's something like 100, 000 flights.
[00:01:10] Rod: So nearly a million a week. Every week. Or three quarters of a million. I exaggerate.
[00:01:14] Will: At any one moment. There's something like 500, 000 people up in the air, which is, for those of you who want a translation, everything comes back to the size of Canberra but it's a small city. A medium sized city actually up in the air at any one time
[00:01:29] Rod: thriving city with a lot of opportunities for culture and cafes.
[00:01:32] Will: Yeah. That too. That too. Or you can do it. You multiply that over the course of a day and it's thought that something around 6 million people take a flight every single day, which if you step back from the population of the planet is 0. 1%, which is not nothing, but every single day, one in a thousand people take a flight. It doesn't take a lot to work out that flying has an absolutely massive impact on the planet
[00:02:00] Rod: but if it's in the air, it's not touching the planet. So it should be fine.
[00:02:03] Will: So there's the greenhouse gases. Well, carbon dioxide release, but also there's a few other greenhouses, gases that are coming out of the back of the tailpipe of the plane. That's about 1. 9 percent of the total damage greenhouse gases. It adds up a bit more in, in carbon dioxide, but if you go straight to what is the impact of flights on temperature, it's about 4%. But the thing is it's kind of, this is a bad metaphor. Only going up.
[00:02:30] Rod: Well done. Unlike planes, it's not landing.
[00:02:32] Will: That's the problem.
[00:02:33] Rod: Let's extend that metaphor or that analogy
[00:02:36] Will: but it doesn't have to be that way. There are other ways that we can travel. Other ways that we can get around the planet. They might not be as fast and they might not make you popular, but we're here today to talk to someone who's in the middle of journey, a journey from one side of the planet to the other side of the planet. It's a Gianluca Grimalda. Welcome to the wholesome show.
[00:02:58] Gianluca: Hello, thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
[00:03:06] Will: Now, listener listener and producer, you may hear some tones behind Gianluca. That's the sound of the cargo ship.
[00:03:14] Rod: His foot massage. He's getting a foot massage while he talks.
[00:03:16] Will: Foot massage and cargo ship.
[00:03:19] Gianluca: I wish that was the case.
[00:03:21] Will: You're normally based in Germany, right? Your job is in Germany? But you were out in Papua New Guinea. What brought you out to Papua New Guinea?
[00:03:28] Gianluca: Yes. I spent seven months in Bougainville province of Papua New Guinea to study social adaptation to climate change. I'm a social scientist and this is my fourth field worker here in Bougainville, to understand how people adapt to climate change.
[00:03:42] Will: Yeah. So on the climate change, what sorts of impacts are they seeing and how are they responding to that?
[00:03:47] Gianluca: Coastal communities I visited already had an instance of relocation inland because of sea level rise
[00:03:53] Rod: already. God
[00:03:54] Gianluca: yes, actually all of them. So sea level rise is a big thing, probably because it's matched with the process of land sinking as well. So my understanding is that the Australian tectonic plate is getting over the Solomon Islands tectonic plate. So this causes the land to go down in the Solomon Islands.
[00:04:16] Will: Is that another thing that Australia is doing to the Pacific? Yes, I think we're ruining the Pacific in another way. I didn't know that one.
[00:04:21] Rod: Even when we don't try, we manage. Yeah, it's great.
[00:04:23] Gianluca: The other thing that it's probably even worse is that for many communities, when the drought season comes, they have no food. So the dry season is a period of drought that normally would take about three weeks every year. Now, six weeks, maybe even eight weeks. And so during this period people are really in a situation of famine. So they have to ask for food from their own extended families.
[00:04:51] Will: Look, it certainly brings it home. I mean, you're a climate researcher and I said all of those stats about flights before, but you're seeing people that are affected by climate change directly. You're seeing people moving houses. People dealing with famine is that something that you really think about, you know, when you're making choices in your own life?
[00:05:09] Gianluca: Yes, of course. So seeing these people that literally lack their food when when the drought season comes affected actually my own decision to slow travel back to Europe and to say no to my employer when they told me you must catch a plane now because you are late.
[00:05:28] I made this promise to all the participants in my research. So 1800 people participating in my research. And I told all of them, you know, you are suffering and it's not your responsibility. Because you produce probably around 300 kg of CO2 every year. People from Europe, like me, produce about 9. 7 tons of CO2 yearly.
[00:05:53] People from the United States produce around 20. 7 tons of CO2 on average, of course. And so, I just want to show you that I'm with you, I'm close with you and I'm going to go back to Europe, minimizing the environmental impact of my travel. So, I'm gonna catch ferries cargo ships, trains, coaches. Because in this way, the carbon footprint of my travel will be 10 times lower as what I would produce if I caught a plane.
[00:06:25] So I, according to my computations, catching a plane would produce about five tons of CO2. That's actually more than what the average person in the world produces in one year. By slow traveling, I produce a 500 kg, which is probably more than what one person from Papua New Guinea produces in one year, but it's still, it's a lot, but it's a 10 times less.
[00:06:47] So that was my way to really show that I'm close to them. Actually 80% of the people in the world will never put a foot on a plane. Only four or 5% will fly regularly every year. So we should not forget that taking a plane, catching a plane is an elite activity. It's something that only the wealthy people around the world can afford.
[00:07:14] And it's true that overall the emissions associated with the aviation industry are 5%. This projected to grow exponentially because the demand for flying has been growing like fourfold over 20 years. But for a researcher like me, catching a plane could represent 90 percent of my carbon footprint so it's as high as that. So for people who Do have the chance to catch a plane really reducing flying is the fastest way to reduce their carbon footprint.
[00:07:51] Rod: Do you feel a bit like Indiana Jones? Like it's, it sounds very romantic. I'm guessing the reality is maybe not so much taking all these ships and merchant marine boats and it sounds Exotic.
[00:08:01] Gianluca: Yes, exactly. I mean, it sounds romantic, but then when you sleep for 10 days on a cargo ship and you have to deal with the mice every night, you know, many times you think of why on earth am I doing it? Because you know, when mice bite you, You wake up because it's really painful. You cannot sleep. There is nothing you can do and that you just have to wait that the mice are finishing their banquette on your body. And so you can get on to sleep.
[00:08:28] Will: You've got mice. What are the other tough things that you have to put up with in this long trip home?
[00:08:33] Gianluca: There are a lot of beautiful things. I have I have published the photo of a beautiful sunset. I mean, you can only get these photos with these very peaceful, very relaxing environments of where you are in the middle of the ocean. But I would say, yeah, what I really have to put up with is well, first of all, the uncertainty, because many times I really don't know when I was sleeping that night after I get my, you know, paperwork or my things done. You know, when I traveled to here, I wasn't sure I would have been able to cross the border between Pakistan and India after I actually did it because many people told me the visa that you have is not a valid to cross the border on foot. So I would say the uncertainty, it's not something that I particularly welcome, but yeah, you have to get used to it.
[00:09:25] Will: That is a very high level of uncertainty to get used to. A lot of people tap out before that level of uncertainty. You're well in the high tolerance there I think
[00:09:34] Rod: he's in the 1%.
[00:09:35] Gianluca: And in the place where I'm here now, this is just an example, but basically they told me I cannot get out alone. So now I'm really like in a bunker in a way. I'm staying in the dwarf of the ship company that hosts me. And I'm only allowed to get out under escort. They told me it's too dangerous as a white man, as we are always referred to here in a PNG. It's too dangerous for you to get out alone or you could be subject of a robberies, a kidnapping. So I always have to get out under escort.
[00:10:08] Rod: I've only been to Port Moresby, it's the only, only place I've been anywhere there. And it was for a conference with UNESCO and it was very well secured. We're in a hotel compound and it's the only place I've been in the world where they said to us, okay, look for tourists, if you're interested in walking around the city, don't, and this is in tourist literature in the hotel room. And then they also said, but if you really need to, take two of our guards with you, and they had guards all around the hotel. And I just remember this was nothing. I mean, we're in the center of the main town in a nice hotel being looked after by an international agency and they were saying, This is crazy. I don't want to go into the other story. Some of the participants in this meeting, the horrible things that happened to them just outside of town. So where you were and have been, I can't even imagine how frightening that would be.
[00:10:52] Gianluca: Yes, it's true. I've also been in Port Moresby. I ventured alone quite a few times and nothing happened to me but of course, this doesn't mean that the risk is negligible. Yeah. I mean, I think you have to trust your instinct.
[00:11:08] Will: But you know what? There is something else going on there. You've mentioned a few security risks to you in in the research that you're doing in New Guinea. But also in crossing, crossing tricky borders, avoiding potential conflict zones in Russia, Ukraine, Iran maybe, or obviously Israel, Palestine at the moment. And I wouldn't say a lot of those insecurity situations are directly contributed by climate change, but we know that climate change is likely to exacerbate all sorts of tensions around the world.
[00:11:40] You increase famine, decrease water supplies. You make it so there's less farming land and it makes people all the more insecure. And I think there is something there that the, a lot of this rich part of the world is insulated and protected. We can skirt over the top of these things in an airplane for now, while making the problem worse.
[00:11:59] Gianluca: Yes, absolutely. Many people say that the war in Syria, for instance, was caused by a major drought, so that different groups clashed to get access to water and that has already completely changed the political landscape in Europe and possibly in the world.
[00:12:14] So what you are saying is absolutely true. So, yeah, in a way I try to explore the extent to which this alternative way of travel is feasible in today's world. And of course, if there are major security threats, I will reconsider my travel plans. But I mean, I managed to come here almost exclusively no fly and I mean, it went very well. And let me add something about really the interest in that I have as a researcher in this type of travel.
[00:12:48] So Pakistan to me was a very interesting country because last year they have been affected by major floodings. 2000 people died. The two million people had to be evacuated because of floodings. When I was traveling there, first of all I saw all the rivers were dry, so I really couldn't figure out how that could be flooding.
[00:13:11] But clearly, when the summer season comes, it's so hot, then the humidity makes really rainfall torrential. But this is not the first thing that hit me. What I knew is that Pakistan is one of the countries with the highest mortality rates for road accidents in the world. 27, 000 people die on the roads in Pakistan.
[00:13:36] And I got on coaches and there are no seatbelts. On cars there are no seatbelts. So I asked my fellow traveler, why is that? And he told me, because God has already decided what is going to happen to you. So you are going to die whether you wear a seatbelt or not, if you have to die. You know, in local language, they must have a word for yes, but they never say yes.
[00:14:03] They would always say, inshallah, God willing. So for them, it's really everything is about the fatalism. So they think that the future is a predetermined. It's already written. And basically, whatever you do, whether climate change will come about or not. It doesn't depend on your actions. It will come whether you act against it or not.
[00:14:24] I spoke with some policemen and I asked them, what are you going to do for next year's crisis? Because for sure flooding will come again. And their answer was nothing, absolutely nothing. So, I mean, I was completely astonished by what I heard, and that taught me two things really how cultural differences can make a big impact in the way populations adapt and even fight against climate change. And it also taught me how really interesting for me is to slow travel because I can get the chance to really speak with so many people and learn from people I would otherwise never meet.
[00:15:08] Rod: Years ago, we did a public show for the Australian Greens party. We were speaking to their leader at the time. And I've worked some just again with UNESCO in around Pacific islands, not much in Papua New Guinea, but they were telling us a story where they went over to, I think it was the Marshall Islands. And they were talking to people in a big sort of community hall about the effects of climate change and how it will affect their areas in particular. And they're showing catastrophic images that were real. And they said they looked around the room and they saw all these faces were kind of beaming and looking delighted.
[00:15:39] And it was because the influx of extremely hardcore Christianity that said, basically, the sooner that happens, the sooner it's the rapture and the sooner we are taken up. And so they were quite kind of delighted by the idea that this was coming sooner rather than later, and speaking of cultural difference, and I just think, how do you talk to people about climate change when they're like, this is great. Like, it's either inshallah, you know, it's going to happen anyway, or it's like, this is excellent, we get to heaven faster.
[00:16:04] Gianluca: I have done some, let's say, social psychology and the communication about climate change. So the basic lesson is that you have to speak with the language of the person you are talking with. So you have to try to Understand their values and make them understand that what you want to transmit is expressed in their own system of culture and their own language. So I think, yeah, the example you talked about is a very specific, a very hard one. But in principle, I suppose you can always try to make them understand that it's in their benefit maybe short term benefit to do something to adapt against climate change.
[00:16:52] Rod: Look, I have to say that this is too, the differences are too great. That's my feeling anyway.
[00:16:56] Gianluca: Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, I have the same doubt with respect to climate deniers. So sometimes I think maybe it's just a waste of time to engage with the climate deniers because they are just In a completely different mindset. I've read an article that said that that's not true. So that there are some marginal, let's say improvements or some marginal shifts that they can do by listening to you. But yeah, overall, I also wonder whether maybe it's just a waste of time.
[00:17:23] Will: So, so let's go through your trip then. So getting from Bougainville back to Germany, what is the plan? What sorts of ferries and boats and trains and buses and things will you be taking?
[00:17:34] Gianluca: Yeah, it's mapped out, but I must be flexible because there are many things, many parts of the travel that cannot be booked in advance. So for instance, something that I'm quite fearful now is whether Iran might get involved into the war in Israel.
[00:17:51] So if that is the case, I will probably have to try to circumvent Iran and that I will have to apply for visas. Fortunately now applying for visas is a much, much easier than in the past. So countries like Iran and Pakistan accept online visas so that makes the process much, much easier. The most difficult thing is getting out of this island because they are in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
[00:18:20] There are very few freight ships and even less passenger ships so that is the most difficult thing. So I managed to find them the owner of a cargo ship who allowed me on board. It wasn't easy. I had to ask many people before one said yes. We asked authorization to the papua New Guinea National Maritime Authority. They said yes, perhaps with some surprise. And so I caught the first cargo ship. I arrived here in Rabaul in New Britain. And I hoped that there would be another cargo ship ready, but that hasn't worked out so I'm stranded here for 10 days. So I'm going to catch another ferry next week, Friday next week, and then it will be much easier while I am in the island of Papua. So from there, I am confident I can get to the border with Indonesia pretty quickly. And then in Indonesia, they have a national ferry company that will take me to Singapore after about 10 days of travel.
[00:19:28] And then I have already traveled several times from Singapore to Europe. This time I'm going to try something different because I cannot possibly travel through Russia. So I will travel by train and coaches through Malaysia, Thailand, cambodia, Vietnam, China, and then I will cross the border to Pakistan near the basically Himalaya range.
[00:19:52] Will: Wow. That's beautiful.
[00:19:54] Gianluca: Yeah. It will be beautiful. That's the first time that I do it. I really look forward to that. Then I'll get south. I'll cross the border to Iran, hopefully. And then I will travel up north to Turkey, catch a ferry to Greece, catch a ferry to Italy, and then I'll be home, basically.
[00:20:12] Will: What's your window on the estimate? I mean, do you have meetings booked or anything like that at the other end? Are you getting back for your brother's birthday or anything like that?
[00:20:19] Rod: I'm sorry, I couldn't make it because I was held up by gangsters on the edge of Pakistan border.
[00:20:23] Will: Did you know? How many days do you reckon?
[00:20:25] Gianluca: I do have a sub commitment back in Germany, I have to be in a trial, so I have to be there as quick as possible because probably the trial will start in December. Okay. I would say between, yeah, around 50 days.
[00:20:41] Will: 50 days. Okay. Cost? What do you reckon? Obviously you're paying for hotels in different parts of this and, you know, there is food all the way through. But do you have a sort of estimate on the amount of literally the travel and how much it will cost?
[00:20:54] Gianluca: Yes. So that's something that many people ask me. For sure, slow travel costs more than catching a plane. It's probably between 50 percent and 100 percent more. So it's not terribly expensive and the water really costs more is visas so visas can be very expensive.
[00:21:13] Will: Yeah. Okay. So I was guessing, you know, each of these ferries, each of these trains would just continue to add up to be quite a lot more expensive. So saying, you know, 50 to a hundred percent more is not a lot.
[00:21:24] Rod: What you should do is make your comparisons to business class travel and then it'll sound better.
[00:21:29] Gianluca: There you go. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Actually, you know, on the cargo ship where I am now I'm very lucky, but I'm not paying anything. I haven't paid anything for the ticket. I'm not paying anything for the room, so. Oh, cool. I cannot complain too much about mice.
[00:21:41] Will: Do you have to do some cargo ship work as well? Carry some barrels or something like that?
[00:21:45] Gianluca: No, I mean, it's it's very nice to see that some people are very kind. Actually, I gave the owner of the ship a bottle of Australian wine, little sign of appreciation, but yeah I'm, I've not been requested to pay anything in cash.
[00:21:58] Rod: I'll wait until you further out into the ocean. Then suddenly the the prices will start to change.
[00:22:02] Gianluca: So there are many moments in which I ask myself why on earth am I doing it? But yeah, in the end I'm determined to do it. Partly because of this promise of this commitment that I have with the people in Bougainville. And partly because, yeah, I mean, now I feel that I have the attention of all over the world on my travels because my story has really attracted so much attention worldwide that I feel kind of under surveillance.
[00:22:28] Will: Look, a big part of the story that Gianluca's story is that his bosses said to him, no, this is too slow, buddy. You've got emails to answer. You've got I don't know, some meetings or whatever it is
[00:22:39] Rod: a grant application to fill in
[00:22:40] Will: work is required. You need to be back at your desk. This is too slow. So what's going on here?
[00:22:46] Gianluca: Yes, actually, my employer was not amused with the delay of about seven weeks to my field work that was not due to me, you know, sunbathing on a beach, but there were serious security threats. At one point we were held hostage by gangsters wielding machete and asking a ransom to get all my belongings back. So yeah, this is part of the Bougainvillea experience. It's the first time that it happens to me, but yeah, it has happened.
[00:23:17] I tried to venture into areas that were not clearly safe to me and that is what happened. Then there was a volcano activity that stopped activities for another couple of weeks. So all these things happened, and yeah, let's say my institute did not appreciate that. I really wanted to, I really needed to stay here for all this period to really complete my data set.
[00:23:41] Yeah. I set as a target that you have 3 villages to have enough of variation in terms of exposure to climate change. And I mean, I was determined to get this finished and I wasn't even thinking that Being delayed would be a matter of getting fired, but this precisely what happened. The main bosses of my institute back in germany realized that I was that late, they organized a video call and they told me, okay, now you have to be back here in five days.
[00:24:12] So you have to jump on a plane in three days, otherwise you are fired. And they know very well that I have been practicing what I call conscientious objection to flying for the last 13 years. In the past, they always approved my slow travel. Even for this travel, we made an allowance of five weeks of slow travel to come here and seven weeks to get back. So it didn't come as a surprise when I told them, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm not catching a flight. I'm sticking with my slow travel. If you want to fire me.
[00:24:46] Rod: So what changed? Why did they change their minds on this then?
[00:24:49] Gianluca: Well, you have to ask them.
[00:24:50] Rod: Okay. We'll get them on
[00:24:53] Gianluca: for them, it's unimaginable that somebody can be seven weeks late.
[00:25:01] Will: Look, I do like the idea that it's unimaginable for someone to be seven weeks late.
[00:25:05] Gianluca: Yeah. But you know, things that can go wrong on a field work. If I want to think badly and in Italy, we say that if you think badly, you are right. They basically wanted to punish me for my past involvement in civil disobedience. So last year, I became very active in Radical, always a nonviolent action, of civil disobedience to protest against the inaction on climate related issues and on the transition to a zero carbon economy. Last year they already threatened me to fire me if I had got on with these kind of activities. And actually I got on with these type of activities, but they could not fire me for that because you cannot possibly fire your employee for what he does in his spare time. Yeah. So maybe they just waited the first occasion, the first infringement of the rule to get very harsh on me. Many people criticize me because they say, if you really wanted to save emissions, then you should not travel at all. And I normally hit back saying that if I wanted to minimize my emissions, I should kill myself. So I produce really zero carbon, but I'm not prepared to do that.
[00:26:21] But. I mean, to some extent, I'm also mindful that every travel we do does create cost so I have also cut down on a lot of my travels. So even these travel back, you know, you know, it's going to cost a 500 kg of a CO2. So it's something it's not really negligible. But I thought that overall it was good to come here because I study climate adaptation.
[00:26:48] I gave several feedback to the local people. All the local communities that I travel to, they had close to no idea about Why climate change was happening. They saw food the harvest and not being as good as plentiful as before, but they didn't know why. So they really thanked me for the awareness talk, as they call it, that I gave.
[00:27:12] So on balance, I thought it was justified that you travel here, but I would like to say that every time I embark on it on a trip. I really asked myself, Is this really necessary? I mean, I'm not the kind of person who like a lecturing out to others and telling others what they ought to do.
[00:27:31] But at least I tried to share my thoughts. And at the moment, my thought is that we are literally Seeing the ecosystems collapsing in front of our eyes, and so many people tell me, okay, you've done an insane thing by giving up your job because you didn't want to catch an intercontinental plane once. But I think in this era of climate collapse, the really mad thing is to get on with the business as usual.
[00:28:01] To get on, assuming that we can go on with the standard, you know, consumption patterns that we have or energy consumption patterns that we have as if the resources on earth were unbounded. So with this experience, I'm really trying to get people to think outside the box and think that you know, inviting people to push the boundaries of what they consider normal during a climate crisis.
[00:28:27] So I think. Overall, I have had a high enough impact with my story that I think even losing my job was justified on the grounds of the kind of return that I have had.
[00:28:41] Will: Fantastic Gianluca. We'll be following on your journey. I hope not too many mice and not too many border disputes. Have a good trip home.
[00:28:50] Gianluca: Thank you. Thank you for following.
