We all know that sugar is bad for our teeth.
But... how did we come to know that?
It’s fairly common to see a healthy set of pearly whites now, but scroll back just a few decades, this wasn’t the case. A study in Sweden in the 1930s found that even 3 year old children had cavities in 83% of their teeth.
That’s bad. That’s real bad.
See, the Swedes love their sweets. They even have a special term for Saturday Candy!
With the knowledge we have today, the connection between candy consumption and cavities is blatantly obvious. But back then, they were still trying to figure out why people had black teeth… or no teeth at all.
In fact during the World Wars, toothlessness was so prevalent in the United States that the military restricted recruits to men who had six teeth intact. As long as you had six teeth, you were good to go.
But what was to be done? At that point, dentists were divided on the cause of dental decay. Was it due to an underlying disease? Was it due to overall diet? Or… was it candy? (Thankfully people had figured out by then that tooth worms weren’t to blame).
So, The National Board of Sweden decided to undertake a long term nutritional study to determine the root cause of dental cavities once and for all. Aptly named the Vipeholm Hospital sugar experiments!
They did in fact determine the cause (yes, it’s sugar), but the way they went about it was, well… not so ethical.
SOURCES:
The New Yorker - How to eat candy like a Swedish person
History of Dentistry - History of Dental Caries and Cariology
CNN Health - The Swedish cavity experiments: How dentists rotted the teeth of the mentally handicapped to study candy’s effect
Atlas Obscura - An Adorable Swedish Tradition Has Its Roots in Human Experimentation
Wikipedia - Vipeholm experiments
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Will 00:00
Hey, we're on a break right now. And hopefully you are too. But for your edification, during this period, we've been delving into the archives, finding a few episodes from ancient history that maybe you haven't heard, maybe you have, maybe you want to hear again, that might be something that you could enjoy right now for this one. Well, we're used to the idea that there are certain things that we shouldn't eat certain things that maybe aren't good for your body
Rod 00:28
toenails.
Will 00:29
That's one of them. That's one of them. Definitely, no toenails, don't need a scientific study to show that. But we did need a scientific study back in the olden times, to show us that maybe sugar wasn't great for us. And it's great that we know that. But the path that we got to know that fact, was also not great. Enjoy this is the sugar experiments of Vipeholm.
Rod 00:57
God bless the Swedes
Will 00:59
We'll be back with fresh episodes at the end of January. Enjoy.
Rod 01:06
So my Nordic cousins are nuts about candy.
Will 01:11
Do you mean the people of the Nordic lands? Yes.
Rod 01:14
Yes. My literal cousin. So because they are Latvian, which isn't it's close, it's close. But the most nuts about candy other Swedes, as Swedes love the sweets
Rod 01:25
The depending on the study. So there's a Swedish BOARD OF AGRICULTURE study that said they eat more per year per capita more candy than any other nation. And we're talking about 30 pounds per person per year each that's about I don't know eight and a half 1000 kilos and so that they're into it, they love it, but they've actually made a it kind of a national pastime so they have this thing called lördagsgodis, which means Saturday candy. So once a week yeah, they basically they're, they're encouraged to stuff that gorgeous flawlessly skin faces with chocolates.
Will 01:25
in the world?
Will 02:02
How do I still have gorgeous, flawless skin with all of this stuffing of the candy
Rod 02:07
because I only do it once a week. Stuff and purge.
Will 02:10
Brown Bread. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, pickled fish and then you have the candy
Rod 02:16
and really heavy salty licorice, which I've heard described as eating sump oil.
Will 02:21
I'm a huge fan of salty licorice.
Rod 02:23
Licorice isn't for me anyway. So the idea behind lördagsgodis is the moderation thing. So if you just do it once a week, you go nuts. Every corner store apparently has picnics bins where you can go crazy they sell by the pound. So this is the thing. But few of the sweets standing in line to load up on the sugary goodness on the Saturday morning realise their weekly indulgence in this thing was inspired by research on patients at a mental institution in the 1940s
Will 02:49
what
Rod 02:50
this ended up definitively proving that sugar particularly between meals causes tooth decay.
Will 03:10
Welcome to the wholesome show, the smorgasbord or to follow a Swedish theme of science. Yes. For people who set up the back of the classroom
Rod 03:21
in which we ask all the dumb questions or the interesting ones and make the stupid statements which you do later. I mean, dear listener, wow. I know. Right? Therefore you don't have to. That's what we do. That's us. That's us.
Will 03:33
I'm Will Grant.
Rod 03:34
I'm Dr. Roderick, Gryphon Lambert's and my new title
Will 03:38
Lolly in chief
Rod 03:39
better adapted from of course, Kim Jong Il because he's got a list and I think this this week, I'm going to become the best ideal leader with versatile talents,
Will 03:47
versatile.
Rod 03:48
This is literally on his list of things he's bestowed upon himself best ideal leader with versatile talents.
Will 03:53
So you have a Swiss Army of talents, army knife,
Rod 03:57
everything and ideal.
Will 03:58
The wholesome show is brought to you not by dear leaders all by candy but by the Australian National Centre for the public awareness of science.
Rod 04:07
And this week, they probably won't mind that.
Will 04:09
Okay. Oh, this week, I'm going to be happy
Rod 04:12
this episode. it's science ish. Well, and none of its to do with you know, body product. Ah, no, not really.
Will 04:22
All right, make me feel happy.
Rod 04:23
I'm gonna make you feel happy Will. So like let's just start before we dig straight into Swedish stuff. So the study of dental caries or caries, which is also cavities and other such
Will 04:36
slides Hang on.
Rod 04:37
Technically, it's called carries
Will 04:39
like they just forgot the cavity.
Rod 04:40
But I know, I know. I didn't get it. And the studies called Carry ology, which can be easily confused with one of my favourite websites carry ology
Will 04:48
Yeah, just bag boys. But but carries not cavities. this sounds like a typo. Like in 1920 And then someone just went oh, well, you've got it now.
Rod 04:58
So it's a printfinity. Yeah. So they call it your carry ology and cavities are part of carry ology
Will 05:03
what else is in carry ology
Rod 05:05
gross shit. Or gross tooth gross.
Will 05:09
Just like the teeth that grow in your brain or your eyeball or something.
Rod 05:12
Well, that was that was great episode.
Will 05:15
Hunt back through the list listener if you want to find teeth growing in weird places.
Rod 05:19
I do that against us because so tooth decay, it's caused by infection when bacteria which ferments food debris produces acid, which in turn causes demineralisation destruction of the hard tissues of the teeth. The enamel, the dentin and the aisle at this cementum
Will 05:38
Yeah, that's the bit that cement them together. I need to cement them
Rod 05:42
yet and it's one so carries particularly cavities I'm going to forget to say carry so cavities one of the most common diseases throughout the world ever always. Tooth cavities and the things that relate to it
Will 05:53
holes in your teeth.
Rod 05:54
Yeah, are rotting Gungi blah and humans in our precursors have had cavities in our teeth for like four bajillion years like forever and just going on since teeth
Will 06:03
since we were bacteria
Rod 06:04
since yes when we were two three little bacteria with fangs swimming around gouging
Will 06:09
with holes in our teeth a little
Rod 06:11
Yeah, well things slowly eating in our teeth like a fucking gross. And it's funny I just came to the dentist this morning having had a filling which is fun because one of my half of my one of my lips is still numb. So if you sound like I've had a stroke, it's because you know, one of my lips is numb injected with stroke. I was injected with stroke juice. So Australopithecus suffered from cavities. Apparently, there are skulls dating from Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Meza. philic Mesolithic Well, what's that word? So hot mess is a lithic ages
Will 06:42
Stoneage
Rod 06:42
Stoneage dudes have like signs of teeth holes and shit. And the earliest increases in caries, cavities, etc. is attributable to dietary changes, particularly when people started eating things like rice because it's a lot more sugary carbohydrates.
Will 06:55
Okay yeah. So even though we had them back then yeah, but they became more common when we eaten eaten rice and then the Swedish candy.
Rod 07:03
I took it out. I mean, it's crazy, but we're gonna get to that. So their records from scenario like 5000 BC blaming tooth worms, for cavities.
Will 07:11
I like that
Rod 07:12
tooth worm.
Will 07:13
I mean, I don't like that. I don't want I don't want a worm in my teeth at all. Gross.
Rod 07:17
There's little worms.
Will 07:18
There. You got a worm in your teeth. I don't know what Sumerian accent is but let me
Will 07:22
Can I drink boiling water? I don't care
Will 07:24
if there's a quack dentist that gets the worms out of your teeth.
Rod 07:28
Or fuck while I was getting my teeth cleaned at a dentist actually the other day wasn't it today now that was when I got the filling that they found when like oh,
Will 07:41
Ahh okay so you had to come back.
Rod 07:42
And I said to her Jesus Christ as a dental hygienist and in my head I think I'm so glad you exist but who in the shit would sign up to be one? And she said no teeth aren't gross. You know it's gross feet.
Will 07:53
Did you say this to her?
Rod 07:55
I didn't say who in the shit would do it I
Will 07:56
just said because you don't say that to people my god your job is gross.
Rod 08:00
Yeah, everything you do disgusts me
Will 08:02
it's not a conversation starter. Definitely stop
Rod 08:06
notice that God in order he did she said no, no feet. She says literally feet are gross. And she just goes uhh
Will 08:13
she's been thinking that long time she's waiting for people to ask her what is the grossest thing because teeth are gross and shall not suddenly go to a podiatrist and I'm sure that they
Rod 08:23
Feet can be gross, it's true. Sure.
Will 08:26
I think many parts of the human body and many parts of the world can be gross and we think we think all people yes that deal with these gross things for us.
Rod 08:35
Thank you
Will 08:36
No I'm being nice. I'm being noble. Because you know, to be honest, I want someone to
Rod 08:39
I'm glad they do it. I'm glad they do
Will 08:42
and someone has someone has to be an anus doctor.
Rod 08:45
Is it me?
Will 08:47
someone's gonna do it? Like I assume there's
Rod 08:49
I've always wondered about that. You know you're in medical school they say you do want to specialise ago Yep, dates are just want to look up butts
Will 08:58
Well, look, the world needs it.
Rod 09:00
I'm not saying we don't need it.
Will 09:02
But there was there was a first person there was someone who said look, okay, I'm gonna be me.
Rod 09:08
What I need is a specialty. Anyone doing dates? No. Alrighty. So anyway, there's evidence of people treating cavities with drilling from way back like their teeth found. They reckon between 5000 - 7000 BC in Pakistan that have almost perfect holes.
Will 09:27
Jesus, how do they make holes back then? Little drills? Yeah. The drill was invented in like 1910 in the vault of Bosch drill.
Rod 09:35
I don't think it was the electric or these might have been goat powered or something. Can you imagine how hideous the pain would have been? Okay, just hold him down. We're gonna drill a hole in his teeth.
Will 09:44
I'm sure they use some sort of
Rod 09:46
hammer in the head between the eyes,
Will 09:48
a lot of whiskey or something like that, or whatever was
Rod 09:50
even then, think about that, think about that, right? You go to the dentist and they say, Look, we're out of anaesthetic. We're just gonna get your hammered. We're gonna drink this. I don't know. 500 mils of straight whiskey and so yeah, Fucking drunk the room spinning you're talking about how you love him
Will 10:04
and then throw a whole bunch of pain.
Rod 10:05
Yeah, yeah. Yeah
Will 10:07
All right all right I don't I don't want that, but maybe you're easier to hold down
Rod 10:12
I doubt it depends how drunk passed out drunk then you might throbbing so in Egyptian texts for about 1500 BC called the Ebers papyrus they mentioned tooth diseases there's an Aerodyne Assyria I've heard of Assyria. So there's the Saigon dynasty and there's kings physician from that 668 ish BC, writing about how spreading inflammation in teeth was stopped by extracting the tooth
Will 10:36
Oh good there you go
Rod 10:38
and again great idea but we'll keep it we're gonna pull you to that be horrible. God the horror. Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, Egyptians etc had treatment for tooth pain. And it's funny people in the Bronze Age and the Iron Age apparently had fairly low cavity and caries but then sugar cane appeared in the century and up it went
Will 10:59
the demon a demon sugar
Rod 11:02
we should have just kept eating meat and what beetroot
Will 11:04
Isn't that what all paleo people say just just eating beetroot tasty beetroot around the field and then
Rod 11:09
eat that kill it with a with an ox they and the way they treat tooth pain with herbal remedies, charms, bloodletting you know all the good stuff then of course later on barbers did the tooth thing
Will 11:20
as yes indeed the barber surgeons
Rod 11:23
again I mean tooth pain there's a reason why they use it as a torture in classic movies or in fact reality because mouth being stabbed
Will 11:32
you're grossing yourself out here you chose this topic.
Rod 11:34
Oh, it's just horrifying that's why I like it because it's so meaty and we haven't even got to the good stuff. So the there's a where we I've lost my spot. There we go barbers did that terrible thing. And so the upside of that is of course, they probably prevented a lot of disease spreading, taking out infected shitty teeth,
Will 11:51
while they probably
Rod 11:52
just getting to that point would have been displesant. Dentistry has a patron saint Apolonia. Oh, okay, Colonia. So her pressed her supposed to heal pain caused from tooth infection. Northern American Indians, so they suffered an increase in cavities after they came into contact with Europeans because they switch from their normal diets, particularly to maize based diets. And you know, what do you call it corn stuck in your seat teeth? Yep. And then the worms come out of the corn and they eat the teeth. So you know, the that's been a problem. Getting to the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, people started to stop believing in the tooth worm and started thinking, Oh, maybe it's sugar or something.
Will 12:33
Oh, maybe
Rod 12:35
there's a guy called Pierre for shod. He was apparently known as the father of modern dentistry. And he was one of the first people to say, Hey, I think it might be sugar and shit, fellas. Okay. He just proclaimed that he didn't have
Will 12:46
no evidence here. He just saw a lot of kids eating the candy and no teeth.
Rod 12:51
Yeah, like there's something going on. person called Miller in the 1890s found that acid producing bacteria inhabit the mouth and that they dissolve tooth structure. So there's a connection being made to the interior. We're getting somewhere, you know, here and another fella called Black and Williams two different people research plaque. And they started to think we started to find out what's going on here. Then there was some other folks a fella called Fernando E. Rodriguez Vargas found strains of lactobacilli in the early 1920s. And so they're starting to make these connections. But there were no experiments really demonstrating the connections experiments. Yeah, until about 40 years later
Will 13:29
experiments.
Rod 13:30
So with that we return to Sweden. Yeah, experiments. Are you sitting comfortable
Will 13:35
I kind of am. But I don't like the idea of what we're going to experiment here.
Rod 13:39
It's going to be fine. It's not that bad. Just a little bit of science.
Will 13:42
I just like the idea of maybe they're going to give one kid just an all candy diet.
Rod 13:47
You can you see through these pages. So in the early 20th century, dentists was still arguing over what cause decay Was it an underlying disease was a diet was due to candies and sugars, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Often the clues were pointing to candy. So and the way they found that out was things like children orphans in children's homes that were too poor to provide candy.
Will 14:10
But they had less love.
Rod 14:12
So the trade off
Will 14:14
so well, I'm just I'm just saying there could be another theory here that love might have been
Rod 14:18
love deprevation equals tooth carries.
Will 14:21
No no as in a lack of love.
Rod 14:23
That's from saying love. Deprivation
Will 14:24
means no cavities, because they're the orphans.
Rod 14:27
Oh you're right means no.
Will 14:28
So if you don't love them, if you love your kids, then they get cavities,
Rod 14:32
lock them up if you beat them and treat them savagely, or at least coldly I don't think it's good. The obvious conclusion or recommendation
Will 14:39
or something else going on? And I don't know what else happens in orphanages
Rod 14:43
are just just they look after you well, especially in the early 20th century. So yeah, there are showing though there are clear differences between these children and those in the general population. And they noticed also during World War One that the people who were conscripted into war had less tooth decay because there's sugar rationing.
Will 15:02
What what
Rod 15:03
it's like because there was sugar rations
Will 15:05
the ones conscripted as opposed to
Rod 15:10
basically, sugar rationing around people who are affected by it tended to show less decay.
Will 15:15
Okay, I can work with that
Rod 15:18
in Sweden in the 30s studies found that three year old children had cavities in 83% of their teeth
Will 15:25
three year olds,
Rod 15:26
even as young as 2 83% of their teeth
Will 15:29
Wow, they hadn't heard a toothbrush or anything back then.
Rod 15:32
I don't know what they were doing
Will 15:34
but not the right thing.
Rod 15:35
No, no. And they said look this this kind of decay wasn't unusual dental care in many countries was pretty shit. Just a little aside from the US Toothless this was so prevalent in the US that when the military was trying to get
Will 15:48
toothlessness no teeth
Rod 15:52
Low low low tooth
Will 15:53
or you've you've put pull the last ones out and put in false teeth
Rod 15:58
they when they were recruiting people for both World War One and World War Two the men men had to have at least six intact opposing teeth
Will 16:05
six
Rod 16:07
not on one side had to be opposing so you could do something with that
Will 16:10
and you're gonna be able to chomp so usually top three but oh my god Wow.
Rod 16:15
messed up. So treat treatments for shit other basically rotting teeth pulled out
Will 16:20
how do they not notice this was a huge problem. I mean, if everyone's doing it, I get you know, it's like, dude,
Rod 16:24
they noticed there was a problem. But they were like, What are we doing? Yeah,
Will 16:26
it's impossible to do anything about that.
Rod 16:29
This is what it smelt like like so they're like we all we know that they tend to
Will 16:33
crappy teeth only lasts for 10 minutes or so they're they're quick thing the body makes them for when you're a baby, you get another set. And that's it.
Rod 16:40
You're three, you've had teeth for a couple of years.
Will 16:43
You don't need any more. gums just gum your food,
Rod 16:45
you use a blender, you're old enough to use tools. Um, so in Sweden, laws during the 30s, early 40s mandated municipalities provide dental care to citizens, okay, because 83%, etcetera. But they weren't enough dentists. So they're like, What the fuck do we do? So they got this national epidemic and toothpaste too expensive. So they said, the government went, let's focus on prevention. So far, very reasonable. In principle, the problem was they didn't know how to prevent decay. And they weren't sure exactly what they should be preventing in order to prevent decay. And just the law against it won't be enough. Yeah, we mandate now that you will do better with your teeth. No. As in Yes. So they decided we should probably just the government commission, a study on the role of diet, candy in particular, tooth decay. Yep. All very reasonable. The National Board of Sweden decided to undertake a long term nutritional study to determine the root cause of dental cavities once and for all. And of course, the most desirable and accurate study they realised would need to be done on humans.
Will 17:46
Yes.
Rod 17:48
And ideally, you'd have human subjects whose vital signs or details can be measured daily, who would follow a drug or dietary regime without fail? And whose environment can be totally controlled by researchers?
Will 17:59
Oh, okay. Perfect.
Rod 18:01
And they're right. That's how you can be really clear. Okay. So they said to themselves, they stroke to this Swedish beard and said, Where will we find such people? So the medical board went, Well, do we have jurisdiction over the state's mental institutions?
Will 18:13
Oh, great. Oh, okay. Okay, cool.
Rod 18:16
So this is innovative thinking, Yes, this is where we find the perfect conditions. So there are four state mental institutions and the biggest one, and the bleakest one was called described as perhaps the bleakest Viperholm
Will 18:28
Viperholm
Rod 18:29
Viper home for vipers. Yes, actually was the how the country's largest facility for quote uneducable retards.
Will 18:37
Oh, no, no.
Rod 18:40
Full Retards. Oh, yeah. Maybe they pronounce
Will 18:43
their names back then. Were really terrible.
Rod 18:46
A few more in a moment.
Will 18:48
Wrong. Well, they
Rod 18:50
weren't then we just made them terrible.
Will 18:52
I know. We have we have since become aware of certain things, but geez, they went all the way down.
Rod 18:58
Oh, yeah. uneducal retards. That's it was the largest facility for them. So there wasn't any one facility for uneducal returns. But it was also like the perfect facility for doing the study was just outside of Lindt, the main sort of tech or a main town, and it had been turned into a home for people with severe intellectual and developmental disabilities in 1935. So you had all kinds of folk, it wasn't just children.
Will 19:21
Yeah. Okay.
Rod 19:22
And they weren't necessarily mentally ill. They were impaired.
Will 19:28
They had a variety of different issues that now we might deal with in a different
Rod 19:31
fancy conditions. So that was going on. And they they basically, the conditions were kind of like this. The doors of the hospital were always locked. Only private bedrooms were isolation chambers that didn't have furniture when they had bedroom.
Will 19:48
Okay, so that's private.
Rod 19:50
Yes. This is basically patients in solitary where they were they were in this condition, they only got privacy if they were in solitary. They'd sleep on a bed bolted to the middle of the floor. Many of the patients were in such a state they weren't able to dress themselves. Many were tied to their beds. at mealtimes, they're never knives or forks. At best. They were spoons only.
Will 20:12
Okay.
Rod 20:13
And I found a lot of this stuff is now based on a Swedish journalist called Thomas Kanga, who wrote a whole bunch about this particular study and this institution. And so he was saying the big halls where they actually just had people running around with nothing to do to begin with. If they misbehave, they would bathe in cold water I love bathed. I think they've been dumped. Yeah, some of them are just lying on beds all the time.
Will 20:34
Just give them something to do give them a puzzle.
Rod 20:36
Yeah, exactly. Well, you can participate in some research or problem solved. All right, yeah, don't worry about it. So anyway, the researchers would collect they ended up collecting idiots and medical classification, okay, from all over the country smaller wards in places and bring them to vaporholm. And in medical terms, an idiot was a person with an IQ below 25.
Will 20:58
Okay,
Rod 20:59
who function and a level of roughly ish a normal toddler below 25 is,
Will 21:03
it's a long way down
Rod 21:06
an imbecile much better than an idiot IQ between 26 and 50. Okay, described as intelligence of a child of about seven morons function at the intellectual level of a child of about 12
Will 21:18
seriously when they made up these levels, okay, we will want a variety of labels that are really rude, and
Rod 21:24
they're rude now
Will 21:26
like Idiot, imbecile and moron. It's a staggered classification scheme.
Rod 21:31
How's it for the question? Which would you rather be? I don't want to answer.
Will 21:35
Which one is worse. But it's not immediately obvious which one is less intelligent an idiot? Or a moron?
Rod 21:42
I'd feel like today if you call it an idiot. That's not so bad. But if you call it an imbecile or moron, it's worse. Yeah, probably. So it's flipped around a bit.
Will 21:50
Of course, uneducal retard was all of them.
Rod 21:53
Yeah,
Will 21:54
yeah. Okay,
Rod 21:54
you gotta like you gotta give them something that
Will 21:57
they could have classified more here and they gotta get dumb ass in there
Rod 22:01
shit for brains.
Will 22:02
Shit for brains is between 49 and 52
Rod 22:05
very exclusive What do you do, I'm a shit for brains. My dad tells me I'm a shit for brains
Will 22:12
what else
Rod 22:13
is it some some would just be like are not quite you're not quite Are you? Um, there was a there was the only physician at the hospital until 1942. guy called Hugo fluid Berg. He apparently kept copious notes on the patients and he had his own rankings from zero to six for their mental capacities. Okay, zero group was quote biologically lower standing than most animal species basically vegetables. Okay, fuck groups 1-3 may have a certain spiritual life but what otherwise unimaginable.
Will 22:47
They couldn't imagine things.
Rod 22:49
Yeah. Or you can't imagine why you can't imagine me Yeah. Who knows what's going on in their point? Yeah, and two thirds of the patients during World War Two were from the lowest four groups take up two thirds. The journalist again said basically the lower functioning groups could just swallow their food they didn't chew and he said he could see in the journals they were not subject to cavity tests and things because part of the experiment I'm about to describe required chewing
Will 23:17
Guess where this is going. Yeah, okay.
Rod 23:22
So they basically there are people higher levels who mental equivalents of maybe Elementary School preteen children who are allowed to work at jobs that quote no other people would like to undertake.
Will 23:33
Thank you.
Rod 23:35
Do you wonder what they were?
Will 23:36
They weren't good jobs were they weren't Frisbee testing
Will 23:40
is it's risky.
Rod 23:42
Just chew on it know
Will 23:44
how far you can throw it
Rod 23:46
No but it wasn't as bad like I read that went ahh God, this list is gonna be awesome. It's like laundry cleaning growing a garden. I wonder if
Will 23:52
that's not bad. No, not bad at all.
Rod 23:54
But most importantly, these are the patients who could chew and feed themselves.
Will 23:58
Okay.
Rod 24:00
What are your criteria? I'm imagining putting an ethics application now. How are you recruiting? We want people who can chew and feed themselves, like tick. So those are the people who are typically recruited for the study and the corporate underwriters for this study were sugar chocolate and candy companies
Will 24:16
really this was sponsored by them. Were they trying to demonstrate here that it wasn't their fault?
Rod 24:21
It was digging around? I couldn't find a lot but there were certainly implications. I get the impression actually, there's only impression that they were maybe they didn't think it would want to know. Yeah, it could have been It's like no, you know, maybe but not so bad. Yeah. Have a little look for a couple records.
Will 24:42
But um, or unless the Viperholm was already sponsored by Candy here we call this our corporate responsibility
Rod 24:52
retard brought to you by Hershey's.
Will 24:56
I don't know what the big chocolate bars of Sweden are
Rod 24:58
signs on the wall. by institutions Yeah, exactly master foods, people from category Zero to Three morons and imbeciles only. So apparently they underwrote these experiments. And it wasn't clear to me at least to begin with later on there, of course, I'll mention it. But I can say to his suspicion that perhaps they were not keen on results and maybe Okay, put pressure on them. People who did the research not to release it in too much of a hurry. Research. Yeah. Anyway. So in the beginning, there was about 650 people involved in apparently agree to over 1000 people involved, we'll call them just for fun. Participants
Will 25:34
do you need to take the word participant there because they haven't really given consent
Rod 25:39
well consent's a thing that wasn't a thing?
Will 25:42
Well, they weren't called participants back then. Subjects , meaning you are subject to an experimental regime, you don't have a choice.
Rod 25:51
Although, to be fair, when I started studying psych in the 80s, we still weren't that was standard column subjects.
Will 25:57
But the point the point of shifting to participant is to say that there is you are treating them
Rod 26:02
involvement. Yeah, informed consent. Yeah, exactly. Like these guys didn't and couldn't give. They range from 15 to 70 years old, so long, okay. Their average life expectancy in this place was not huge. Anyway. Anyway, so that's kind of what we're dealing with. At the beginning of the study, the teeth were closely examined. And on the whole, particularly the children, their teeth were in much better shape than the Swedish population as a whole. Really, again, probably because they weren't getting the candy
Will 26:30
they were living on gruel
Rod 26:32
Yeah, pretty much non sugared gruel, please have another no one said that. Um, so the first two years of the experiment was apparently called I love this the vitamin study. And it kind of was first two years, children in particular, were given a little starch, half the average consumption of sugar in a typical Swedish diet, how the fuck they knew that I don't know. vitamins A, C and D were added as long as well as fluoride tablets.
Will 26:56
So they're getting to eat normally as well as well.
Rod 26:59
this is the study. Yeah. And they also have fluoride and they weren't allowed to eat between meals. Okay, no. So this is actually like, cool. Okay, so fed them will. I've seen a claim that there are some sources a little tricky to verify that what began in 1945 is government sanction trials for vitamins were converted in 1947, two years later, without the knowledge of the government, or the medical board, and they suddenly decided to switch to sugar and encourage tooth decay. We'll get into that. Also, apparently, up until late in the study, some of the employees were part of the experiment, but they became they got removed because you couldn't control their intake of candy.
Will 27:40
Fair enough.
Rod 27:41
That's the reason
Will 27:41
you need candy at home. Yeah.
Rod 27:43
So had a few snacks, a few sugar snacks. They were delicious.
Will 27:49
I just like the idea of the employees that are raiding the bag of vitamins or the bag of candy to take them home. Imagine that,
Rod 27:57
did you treat the experimental, I cheated. I had extra vitamins and three fluoride tablets. That's why my skin has gone yellow Flora doses is a thing, but we don't get it. So over the two year period, 78% of the children at least had no new cavities. So it's going fine. Over the next two years,
Will 28:16
okay,
Rod 28:16
let's get into
Will 28:18
change the experiment here
Rod 28:20
as you do because it's science. Yeah. And you know, we're looking for are
Will 28:22
not getting enough cavities here so we need to change things.
Rod 28:25
Well, I'm only being so harsh. They're just scientists. They're just people who want to find shit out for the good of humanity. So, over the next two years, children were given twice the amount of sugar typically consumed in Sweden.
Will 28:37
Okay,
Rod 28:38
and this was administered in particular ways. Rectal
Will 28:42
Jesus Christ
Rod 28:44
Your face was worth it. Can you imagine that? Are you ready? No. This isn't fun.
Will 28:49
Take your sugar suppositry
Rod 28:51
I don't think too much to take. So one group ate a sweet sticky bread made with extra sugar with all the meals another group drink beverages with one and a half cups of added sugar.
Will 29:01
Wow. How do you get a cup and a half is a day
Rod 29:06
meal per meal.
Will 29:08
How do you get that much sugar in and out? Hang on? How cool is that? Only double the average? Like the average Sweden at a sweet eating three quarters of a cup of sugar in their drink.
Rod 29:20
What do I mean when you hear the numbers on soft drinks pop whatever you want to call it here at the moment. Maybe there's a shitload out there in a glass of coke, like a shitload. Yeah, in the order of many tablespoons
Will 29:33
are loaded in so many teaspoons because I was like seven or eight teaspoons
Will 29:36
still imagine that Imagine taking a drink and deliberately adding seven or eight teaspoons No, no, no, one and a half cup
Will 29:40
but one and a half cups is an intensely sickly sweet drink
Rod 29:44
gross as hell, even as a kid I think I would have struggled in sugar.
Will 29:48
Did you though?
Rod 29:49
Yeah, I'm not against now either, but not like that. The third group of these three eight chocolates, caramels or sticky toffee is between meals. The sticky candy grips sticky toffee mob with further to divided into children who ate eight or 24 pieces between meals
Will 30:04
Wow.
Rod 30:06
And this stuff was specifically developed to stick more to teeth.
Will 30:11
We want to make it worse for you
Rod 30:12
that shits frustrating. fantails Yeah, I was thinking I like them but then I get to the middle tube and it's like why would you go away now?
Will 30:19
My biggest regret is anytime I haven't done this in years because I know this now, minties, you put them in your mouth and you go I regret it instantly because my teeth out
Rod 30:29
why don't you go away dissolve faster? Yeah, I agree. Like it seems great to get that initial minty deliciousness and then
Will 30:36
so they designed these things. With their theory being that if it's sticky, it's going to be worse for your teeth. Yeah, great. Thanks. Thanks for designing that.
Rod 30:44
I don't know that yet, it's an experiment
Will 30:46
just testing
Rod 30:47
you're prejudging. Okay. You're not being very science. Were they correct, though?
Will 30:50
Yeah.
Rod 30:54
So the results of the tooth decay was high in groups, which received the sticky sugar between meals, the control group and the sucrose and bread groups was still low. They're still down in the level of the vitamin study, essentially. So too bad. In both toffee and caramel groups, etc. The increase in cavities occurred immediately after they begin eating them. So very soon immediately is a bit of a it's not it's not straightaway, I had a candy and one of my teeth fill up. Yeah. So as the journal Kanga says they were given toffees, okay, and was it stuck in their teeth, the teeth were destroyed. And after they were ruined, or these people were in terrible pain,
Will 31:28
it was actually gone. Oh, the teeth were destroyed. Ah,
Rod 31:32
so on that record show records from the study that the researchers decided not to fix the teeth for, quote, those who could not cooperate with the fixing procedures. So like they were too scared of the drill?
Will 31:43
Well, they were low on the IQ. Yes.
Rod 31:46
So they are in the what do we say dunderhead or lower category. So the people in the lower categories, they just chose not to fix the teeth, but they would probably pull them if they could, if they could. They did fix the teeth in the higher order intellect categories, those who could actually chew
Will 32:03
by fix would just mean pull out.
Rod 32:06
They filled usually, usually pulled out so some of them so I got that wrong in the lower categories, they basically may have just left them in their heads, because it was too hard. Okay. You know, when you explain to someone with an IQ of 25 to lifestyle, it's going to hurt from me, but it'll be better for you.
Will 32:21
It's not going to work very well.
Rod 32:22
They don't reply. I see what you're saying. I'll do my best. That is not a typical response. So the journal again, Kanga said he looked at the dental records from the study, and he said, basically, every tooth was black. I'm talking, every tooth damaged and went on.
Will 32:37
And you really haven't worked out enough by now?
Rod 32:40
Yeah, I think you got your you got your data. Oh, my God. At the end of the study, 50 of the research subjects basically had no teeth totally ruined. It's only up to 1000. So it's not even it's only 10%.
Will 32:51
Fine. That would have happened anyway,
Rod 32:53
that would. In fact, we're gonna think about as the people they saved who weren't in the experimental groups. Of course, today, you just couldn't do this.
Will 33:02
No, you couldn't.
Rod 33:04
But it was also you add to it, you can do this at all. But back then, of course, also people with disabilities were basically considered subhuman. So it was it was, you know, these are different times.
Will 33:13
Yeah. Innocent science at the time. Yeah.
Rod 33:16
Not really innocent, though. So it was added. So the another part of this, according to the journal was, these people are also in a sense seen as owing the state for their care.
Will 33:28
Yes. So what is give us your teeth? Yeah,
Rod 33:31
it's like a it's an obligation as a service to the community who's supporting you.
Will 33:37
Thank you.
Rod 33:38
So see, it was just quid pro quo. Quid pro quo, I always find that hard to say, just let you and tuberculosis
Will 33:45
you probably shouldn't say very much, then
Rod 33:46
I probably don't well, at the moment.
Will 33:48
It's the people that say it are not good.
Rod 33:51
Not at the moment, are they? So in a paper written 50 years after the study, one of the original authors defended the work of a retired professor of cardiology bow class. And he said, Look, it was at a time when information in society was far more limited than it is today.
Will 34:08
True.
Rod 34:09
He said, Look, it was it was done before things like the Declaration of Helsinki, which was a document, you know, medical ethics
Will 34:15
before we invented ethics.
Rod 34:16
So how is it written in 1964? So it was before that
Will 34:19
how can we possibly be ethical?
Rod 34:21
We don't know what suffering was it hadn't been defined yet.
Will 34:24
until an international committee had agreed on stuff,
Rod 34:27
it took the Germans to help us there. The Germans were the inspiration Nuremberg first. So then he goes on to say we dentists did not see any ethical problems with the study itself. And he disagreed with the journalist saying
Will 34:43
How can it not be ethical, but
Rod 34:44
I don't know
Will 34:45
I get the treating people have an intellectual impairment as different
Rod 34:50
Yes,
Will 34:50
but how can you not see any ethical problems when you're deliberately ruining people's teeth?
Rod 34:55
You're fucking people up
Will 34:58
and everyone needs to eat regardless of your intellectual impairment,
Rod 35:00
or your ability to treat for that matter
Will 35:01
indeed indeed you know, I just I just How can you not see an ethical challenge there?
Rod 35:08
Yeah, and look, you can have an IQ of seven you can still show suffering I'm going to bet
Will 35:13
I think there are animals that are a long way below that that able to suffer if you are so inclined to make them so
Rod 35:20
look if there's anyone out there listening who's never had a toothache, you're very lucky but I'm guessing most of you slash us have and they suck
Will 35:27
Can we can we find like teeth and dead people and and put them in a sticky toffee or is it trying to replicate the environment a little bit?
Rod 35:34
You can do whatever you want the spare time, but we're talking about we're talking about science and we're talking research. Um, so yeah, this guy goes on. So he the bow Cross says that one of the original researchers said he disagreed with Cangas view that the teeth were totally destroyed, destroyed. And I love this.
Will 35:50
Black is fine.
Rod 35:51
It's bullshit, you know, you're full of shit. And his response, I don't understand is quite to be honest. Many of the new cavities which developed during the carbohydrate periods were only early enamel lesions, which today are remineralized by topical fluoride applications
Will 36:07
today. Yeah, yeah.
Rod 36:09
So is that a defence? Fuck you.
Will 36:12
Well, no, no, no, no, we know how to make them cured now, so therefore, they're fine then
Rod 36:16
before they weren't totally destroyed, so basically shut the fuck up historical journalist. Just I don't see how he thinks that's a defence but apparently he did. So the washup of this before they perform experiments, the cause of the tooth decay been highly contested. And there's a book caught by Samira. carwash, candy, a century of panic and pleasure. Of course, she noted I think she Samira sounds like a done lady to me. She noted that people blame their dental woes on everything from wine and hot foods to masturbation and vitamin D.
Will 36:46
Of course, it was masturbation with your hot food though,
Rod 36:48
and I don't like to talk about anything that doesn't have masturbation.
Will 36:51
The problem was that this study wasn't brought to you by hot food and masturbation big big masturbation.
Rod 36:58
Big wank.
Will 37:00
I do like the idea that that big sugar sponsored this study though, yeah, it seems a little bit dumb of them
Rod 37:07
perplexing
Will 37:07
I mean, if they had said, Okay, let's test it with some hot food as well. Can you get get one group
Rod 37:13
and hammers? hammers are worse?
Will 37:15
Yeah, hammers, they're bad. Grab one group, you're gonna use a lot of masturbation and another group. And then let's see what happens then
Rod 37:21
how the wankers going, they're still at it. Have you looked at their teeth? We haven't had a chance to sit still at it. They've gotten really good. By 1938 leading scientists around the world were pointing to this notion of either a lack of vitamins or carbs, sugars, etc. But there's no definitive proof. So in that sense, the study was a success.
Will 37:41
I totally it's very clear link. And, you know, I are included, I think we've established that there may well be studies that can show things, even if they're not 100% ethical, but we wouldn't do them in
Rod 37:53
911 So but the scientists also their accusations of being bought out by the sugar industry I'm not entirely sure how that happened.
Will 38:02
Yeah, bad bought out badly. Like if I was if you know, I get that there are people Big Tobacco big coal, big sugar that might want to support research to find their results seems like they didn't really incompetently.
Rod 38:14
Yeah so let's buy them out. I'll shit. We were hoping you say more candy, but instead,
Will 38:23
don't get the results. Why do you not do these ones?
Rod 38:26
Is your Swede's actually getting a little better
Will 38:28
Thank you. You gotta give me a warning to practice these things.
Rod 38:32
No. And also why I get so don't worry, though. There's some Russians in Sweden.
Will 38:39
My one accent Yeah.
Rod 38:40
But there apparently weren't a lot of public debates about the ethics of the experiment for a while no surprise there. And there's some suggestion that maybe the results were held back for a while until into the 50s. So cross it again, the guy who was a participant in defending it, it's obvious that a research ethics committee would not accept a project like this today. The need for the study, however, was obvious to us as dentists. So the Swedish parliament and then in the news, they started debating the ethics of the study around 1953, or from that point forward. And of course, you can't say the Swedes are the only people to be dead shits to their people in the no science. You know that. Many other examples, we don't need to go into them.
Will 39:20
I think probably nearly every country, every country that had some sort of industrial size, science probably was bad. Yeah,
Rod 39:27
so pretty bad. In 1957, following publication of the study, a coordinated public health campaign kicked into gear. So the radio public service announcements,
Will 39:36
this one we're gonna get throw candy on Saturdays. Yeah.
Rod 39:40
This is how it came out came out. So yeah, 100, pamphlets, posters in waiting rooms. They encourage young sweets to brush their teeth and eat less candy and a new message went around. It was not too prohibited but moderate and the mantra was translated in a moderation all the sweets you'd like but only once a week.
Will 39:57
That's great.
Rod 39:58
I know. Sounds wonderful. So,
Will 40:01
I still don't know about the all the sweets you like, but just once a week, I mean, I get that he's moderation. But
Rod 40:07
what is what we do? And I like my wife and I fat Fridays. Friday night. Have at it.
Will 40:12
Yeah, I get it.
Rod 40:12
And now of course, unless you eat a whole bunch of like, you try to eat 2L of ice cream and you get worse at it. So I bring home some ginormous amount of ice cream
Will 40:20
Well, it's gonna be great. You've lost your two litres of ice cream fitness.
Rod 40:23
So disappointing. I come home with these mountains of shit and I get through a tenth and this isn't fair I gotta wait another week.
Will 40:30
Now I'm I'm a huge fan of the you know, in the the once a week in moderation. Yeah. When you're allowed to break the rules.
Rod 40:39
I do think ultimately, it's healthier. unless your once a week is like, I can only do shitloads of heroin once a week or
Rod 40:44
Yeah, well, I only drink a hammer your head. Yeah,
Rod 40:49
I'm just gonna go out to the garage and start smoking my head for a while. So this went on. And as a result of what was learned from these patients that again, croissant who's defending it said, Look, research began on sugar substitutes and artificial sweeteners. It was inspired by this and the study has been used to prevent cavities in many school children and scientists numerous times by the reviewers. Well, there's a whole bunch of
Will 41:11
So basically, what he's saying there is these intellectually impaired people or as he said, imbeciles, idiots and morons retard took a few cavities for the rest of us.
Rod 41:23
Yes. Yeah. And look, honestly, okay. Take out the fact that human beings with actual feelings are going to experience suffering.
Will 41:28
Sure just take it out?
Rod 41:29
Just snip that out for a moment. immense amounts of good followed. Shut up, put it back in again.
Will 41:35
Sure, sure.
Rod 41:36
So yeah, it was the origin of this This lördagsgodis, the Saturday candy, etc, etc. And so great. So and I'm going to end with him. His final reflection.
Will 41:49
Okay.
Rod 41:50
Again, direct quote, my reflection now is that the Viperholm study illustrates two well known sayings, one, the end of sometimes justifies the means.
Will 41:59
Oh, yes, that's a famous one. Yeah.
Rod 42:02
And two it's easy to be wise after the event.
Will 42:07
You're wise after the event?
Rod 42:09
What a dick. Yeah, I mean, I get it at the time you were held to different standards. So I understand then it's easy for us to look back and go, you know, we would never have done such a thing. I can't guarantee we wouldn't. I just don't know for sure.
Will 42:21
I'm sure we are doing things like that now but we are working to not do them. I think in that time, you know, sure. In that time, things were different. But there, there is a lot of effort to try not to be an asshold
Rod 42:33
it doesn't sound like it doesn't. Look, you're subhuman. And also the state's looking after you. So here's your opportunity to get back.
Will 42:38
I just think that there are multiple ways to do a study like that, that would tell you some of these things, you know, you're already got the Inkling there people who can't afford candy, or less likely cavities. So fair enough. I'm sure you could do some sort of teeth in a jar experiment.
Rod 42:51
We know what else this this smacks to me. And I don't know about the history of epidemiology. I don't know where it as a study really began. But I don't know, as a practice if it really took off in there, like the methods and so forth. But you know, the idea that you get enough people in enough places under the same conditions, repeatedly measuring it. Yes, you say it's correlation, but they get to a point where you go, there is so much correlation here. And we've looked for other causes.
Will 43:17
That's that's the tricky thing. You know, when when how much correlation do you need to make a policy decision,
Rod 43:23
but it's accepted in epidemiology now? Not then. But it's accepted that there are certain measures where you go, you know what?
Will 43:28
We should act on it anyway.
Rod 43:29
I'm pretty confident,
Will 43:30
I think so. We're pretty cool. And there's a whole bunch of things where you don't do the you know, the gold standard in medicine, the double bottom double blind peer review to control
Rod 43:39
the double bind
Will 43:40
the double bind, yeah. tie up the research and you tie up the participant. But you do those you do the gold standard. There's there's places where you can't do that. Like I love I love you don't do it on parachutes. So there's some studies we just don't do.
Rod 43:55
Can you imagine? Look, we got some people who are very allergic. Okay, we're gonna push them out of plane. Yeah.
Will 44:01
Idiots get a parachute.
Rod 44:03
And the other guys you get to choose for yourself.
Will 44:05
Yeah, well, there you go. And yeah, that's great. I'm, I'm glad that we know these things now. Yeah. But the pathway to know them. That's not always good.
Rod 44:15
Yeah, no, look, it's not like it doesn't quite equate from what I read with the, you know, the horrors of Nazi Germany where they were just doing it for shits and giggles honestly.
Will 44:25
Yeah. And one of the understudy, I'll do it for you one day, and it's always sitting in my to do list. You know, it's the hypothermia experiments, which are the classic. The classic one, have, we learned some things, but was it ethical, but it turns out sometimes they didn't even learn stuff. They just made shit up
Rod 44:42
Yep. Yeah, this was not that it seems at least
Will 44:46
the Wholesome Show is brought to you by the Australian National Centre for the public awareness of science.
Rod 44:51
Yes,
Will 44:52
I'm, Will Grant.
Rod 44:53
Yes he is
Will 44:53
And that's rod Lambert's. And this theme song is from a long time ago
Rod 44:57
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